Testing audiophile claims and myths
Nov 20, 2023 at 2:42 PM Post #17,056 of 17,336
Well, hopefully you aren't too lazy to read the reports on other people's ABX tests in the first post in this thread!

But I agree, if there is absolutely no scientific reason to believe that there should be an audible difference, and you can't detect any problem yourself, it's probably a waste of effort. But wasted effort is pretty common around here. People come in arguing with us and making ludicrous claims about things that there's no reason to believe. They're the ones that should be doing ABX tests, but of course they don't because if they did, they wouldn't be coming in here arguing and making ludicrous claims in the first place.
 
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Nov 20, 2023 at 4:58 PM Post #17,057 of 17,336
yeah, that's what I mean.

I buy a cable that I find pretty.. unless there's an issue, like interference or something, I put it there and forget about it, because I don't worry about imaginary "gainz" you could get from a better cable.

I don't believe in Amplifier sound, but I bought a very expensive Yamaha A-S2100 (used, 50% off the retail price) because I love the looks and the feels of it.. I'm 100% convinced that an A-S301 would've sounded the same, but I'm too lazy to test that.
 
Nov 20, 2023 at 5:35 PM Post #17,058 of 17,336
Past blind listening tests would indicate you're correct on both of those assumptions.
 
Nov 20, 2023 at 7:35 PM Post #17,059 of 17,336
Hewlo.

Ahkshully, I use my non spidey senses. If it gives me frisson and induces tears.. it gets a pass. If not, it gets set aside for testing on next changes.
 
Nov 21, 2023 at 3:35 AM Post #17,060 of 17,336
same here..
I'm too lazy to bother ABX-testing most things..
Which is fine. However, if one is going to make assertions about sound or the performance of audio equipment then DBT/ABX is generally necessary, otherwise one’s assertions are very likely to be wrong because the assertions actually pertain to one’s biased perception rather than the sound or equipment performance. Additionally, it’s a somewhat different proposition not bothering to DBT/ABX if one has done many DBTs over the course of many years as opposed to not bothering having never done any or only having done a few. It’s a very illuminating process which tells us a lot about ourselves/our hearing/perception. You can pick some of this up if you carefully read numerous formal DBT/ABX but it really sinks in when you experience it yourself. It’s very common to hear differences where in fact the differences are inaudible, even very clear obvious differences that you’re sure of. Often those differences largely disappear when the test is blind and far harder or impossible to differentiate. So even before the test is over, you have a good idea your perception was playing tricks. However, occasionally you still clearly hear differences during the blind portion of the test and it’s not until you see your results (when they indicate random chance/guessing) that you realise it’s all in your head.
If I end up enjoying something, that's enough
It’s enough for that instant in time but it’s not enough in two other circumstances/senses: As mentioned above, it’s not enough if one is going to make assertions about audio equipment performance or sound. Secondly, it’s almost inevitable that some portion of “enjoying something” is due to one or more biases and biases are liable to change. Sometimes they don’t change but most commonly they do, occasionally after just a moment or two but other times after days, weeks or many months and while typically not ruining our enjoyment, this can lessen the enjoyment. Almost anything can change our biases, maybe a particularly flowery or well written review of our or some new product, maybe the weight of testimonials or maybe some fact or even science we weren’t previously aware of. We don’t even have to entirely believe it, just being aware of it is sometimes enough and, this doesn’t necessarily occur just once but over and over. This is the basis of what many audiophiles call “upgradeitis“, because they’re not really upgrading, they’re actually just cross-grading or commonly even marginally downgrading. What they’re doing materially but subconsciously is downgrading their previous perception and/or upgrading their current/new perception due to evolving biases. That’s why we see such a plethora of snake oil audiophile products (audiophile fuses, capacitors, cables, network switches, etc.) none of which make any audible difference to equipment performance or the sound but can make a substantial difference to our biases and therefore perception.
If it gives me frisson and induces tears.. it gets a pass.
What gives you “frisson and induces tears” is your human perception. Audio equipment and digital files don’t have any human perception, they have no “frisson” and can’t induce tears, although I once dropped a heavy speaker on my foot that did induce tears (and a significant amount of swearing)! So the question is: Is there some audible difference in the audio equipment/sound that is creating biases that our perception responds to in this way or is it something else creating those biases, say visual appearance, some knowledge such as brand name or price, or some other factor, such as mood?

Personally, when evaluating equipment (and/or resultant sound) I try to do the exact opposite to the above. I do my best to avoid enjoyment, “frisson and inducing tears“ having any influence on my judgement/evaluation, let alone being ”enough” or “getting a pass” based on it. This is because enjoyment, frisson and inducing tears can be so heavily influenced by so many factors that have little or nothing to do with different equipment performance/sound and are highly variable from day to day. For example, I can listen to a sad piece of music one day and feel somewhat sad, the next day I might have remembered some sad event and associate it with that piece of music (or just feel somewhat more “down” than the previous day) which multiplies that emotional response and now induces tears rather than just a “somewhat sad” response. This obviously has nothing to do with differences in equipment performance or sound and everything to do with my state of mind at that point in time, which will probably be at least somewhat different at another point in time. So I try to avoid all this constantly differing minefield and try to evaluate more objective qualities, such as accuracy/fidelity.

G
 
Dec 19, 2023 at 4:06 AM Post #17,061 of 17,336
very interesting read

Longstrong! You scurvy lad!

BRENTONThe-Magic-Pudding_The-Opera_Rehearsals-Charlie-Kinross-MR-76-23h7eh2.jpg
 
Jan 10, 2024 at 5:45 PM Post #17,064 of 17,336
My grating iem's which I struggled to listen to sound fine now after more use so that rules out the silver cable making it peaky as I initially thought.
Brain burn in?
 
Jan 23, 2024 at 5:20 AM Post #17,067 of 17,336
Can't see how. It's taken a year to like them and using other iem's much more. They had me almost grimacing when new.
I don’t wish to seem combative, so I’ll use your statement as a sort of generalised example to illustrate a point rather than as a specific (audiophile) example.

In audiophile reviews, published/official reviews or just a simple post sharing an impression, the probable influence of bias is either simply ignored entirely or not uncommonly, mentioned but dismissed, EG: “It could have all been bias/placebo but I can’t see how because ______” … fill in the blank. That blank can be “the difference was too big”, “the difference was too obvious”, “even my wife/friends/neighbours/relatives/dog heard it”, “the difference wasn’t just one thing”, “the difference was noticeable immediately”, “the difference took 100 hours/a month/a year to notice” or any number of variations: ALL of them are fallacious because none of them, either on their own or in combination, eliminate the probability of bias/placebo or even indicate that was not the cause. What it actually indicates is that the audiophile does not understand the fundamental nature of human hearing/perception, that has been known about and actively exploited for around seven centuries. This is at least somewhat surprising given that audiophiles generally take for granted they have more critical listening experience, knowledge and skill/ability than the average consumer.

The fundamental nature of human hearing/perception is that it’s relative, not absolute. For example, the perception of “loud” is relative to quiet, not to some absolute level. For instance, a short sound at 95dB will not be perceived as particularly loud if it is surrounded by content at 90dB but will be perceived as shockingly loud if surrounded by content at 40dB. Even the average consumer is well aware of this, which is why the old trick of the sound getting quieter in a horror film in order to shock the audience with a contrasting loud sound, hasn’t worked for several decades and we now typically have to be more sophisticated. So the obvious questions for the quote above would be: What was your baseline when your IEMs were new, what were you comparing them with and, what have you heard/experienced during the year since they were new? It would be very surprising if you had experienced/heard absolutely nothing different or more than you’d heard a year ago and if your baseline were identical. “Acclimatisation” over time is a well studied and documented phenomenon of human hearing/perception going back many decades, so, along with other relevant scientific facts, “Can’t see how” brain burn-in (acclimatisation) is NOT the probable cause! Therefore, your statement:

My grating iem's which I struggled to listen to sound fine now after more use so that rules out the silver cable making it peaky as I initially thought.” - Is fallacious, because that does NOT “rule out the silver cable makes it peaky”, all it does is demonstrate the entirely typical/normal phenomena of “acclimatisation”. What actually does “rule out the silver cable making it peaky” is the relevant scientific facts, such as the difference in conductivity/resistivity of silver in a short cable and the affect on audible freqs, objective measurements and properly controlled listening tests.

G
 
Jan 23, 2024 at 2:23 PM Post #17,068 of 17,336
love this!
Recently had some guy tell me that I was stupid for not believing in his experience, because even his WIFE could tell that the difference was HUGE, and she didn't normally care about hifi at all...

see? his wife!!!!!11111 She was completely free of any bias.. probably never met the guy before, I suppose.
 
Jan 24, 2024 at 1:46 AM Post #17,069 of 17,336
Recently had some guy tell me that I was stupid for not believing in his experience, because even his WIFE could tell that the difference was HUGE, and she didn't normally care about hifi at all...
Yep, that’s par for the course, entirely common, we’ve even had people post that in this subforum, which indicates not only that they don’t understand the fundamental nature of human hearing/perception but of science either. And, they’re so convinced of their seeming “common sense” they’ll not only actually post that in an actual sound science forum but add the insult as well. That would be shocking except for two facts: 1. Most audiophiles are “sheeple”, the audiophile press has been unanimously pushing a misrepresentation of bias effects for so many decades that it’s now just accepted as audiophile “lore” without question and 2. We live in a “post truth” world. It’s far more acceptable/fashionable to be suckered by “fake news” and insult others than it used to be. There was a time, not that many years ago, when demonstrating gullibility and ignorance was something to be embarrassed about and avoided, rather than be proud of!

G
 
Jan 24, 2024 at 3:17 AM Post #17,070 of 17,336
2. We live in a “post truth” world. It’s far more acceptable/fashionable to be suckered by “fake news” and insult others than it used to be. There was a time, not that many years ago, when demonstrating gullibility and ignorance was something to be embarrassed about and avoided, rather than be proud of!

G
Is that really new? It seems in some ways there can be better ways about eliminating the audiophile mumbo jumbo vs 1970s audio dealerships. From what I gather then, you'd step in a dealership, they'd demo some speaker system and high voltage amp and declare it the ultimate system. Also kind of true if you look into other media: take how rag newspapers were in early 20th century vs fair newspapers of late 20th century to what factual news you can still get if you're looking.
 

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