Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jul 24, 2020 at 2:48 PM Post #14,056 of 17,336
Is there any audible SQ difference when passing data with bluetooth or cables ?

Back when bluetooth was new, I could barely discern a difference, but I can't any more. The codecs have probably improved.
 
Jul 24, 2020 at 5:36 PM Post #14,057 of 17,336
Is there any audible SQ difference when passing data with bluetooth or cables ? I've just received portable bluetooth dac/amp and honestly if I'm matching it against my wired S1 without any EQ filters I can't tell any difference between them from any of my HP. I'm not even using their highest bluetooth LDAC codec as I'm stuck with iphone and AAC.

AAC is certainly good enough for audio specs. Most new generations of blue tooth are meant to improve bandwidth for further distance and larger data streams like 4K video.
 
Jul 24, 2020 at 6:02 PM Post #14,058 of 17,336
Is there any audible SQ difference when passing data with bluetooth or cables ? I've just received portable bluetooth dac/amp and honestly if I'm matching it against my wired S1 without any EQ filters I can't tell any difference between them from any of my HP. I'm not even using their highest bluetooth LDAC codec as I'm stuck with iphone and AAC.

https://btcodecs.valdikss.org.ru/sbc-encoder/

Can test what they sound like here.
 
Jul 25, 2020 at 7:23 AM Post #14,059 of 17,336
Is there any audible SQ difference when passing data with bluetooth or cables ? I've just received portable bluetooth dac/amp and honestly if I'm matching it against my wired S1 without any EQ filters I can't tell any difference between them from any of my HP. I'm not even using their highest bluetooth LDAC codec as I'm stuck with iphone and AAC.
I’m in the market for going wireless, which dac/amp did you go for?

Ps: My experience with AirPods Pro has been very good so in want a solution for my headphones now.
 
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Jul 25, 2020 at 10:09 AM Post #14,060 of 17,336

I’m skeptical on such tests. How do they decide through which bitrate music is being transmitted ? Software layer is VERY important here and how it deals in unstable connection, lot's of calculation needs to be done on both ends. Data needs to be compressed to some degree when loss happens and specs listed in bluetooth codecs can mean very little in real-life scenario. Android companies still can't crack AAC codec which is licensed by apple and has no good throughput, but apple folks somehow figured out how to compress data efficiently. Even if you listen loossless/flac format over BT AAC at the end you will receive compressed AAC file.

AAC is certainly good enough for audio specs. Most new generations of blue tooth are meant to improve bandwidth for further distance and larger data streams like 4K video.

Bluetooth codecs where made purely for audio transmission and connectivity with devices that doesn't require much data to be passed, don't get mistaken by wireless video streams, these are different beasts with dedicated antennas, different hardware and protocols are used there. BT could never achieve such speeds and In no shape or form it could deliver video stream, but good thing for us it seems that for audio it doesn't need much. Only issue is pairing and how devices used for audio en-codes and decodes data passed over BT.

I’m in the market for going wireless, which dac/amp did you go for?

Ps: My experience with AirPods Pro has been very good so in want a solution for my headphones now.

I've got Shanling UP4 from aliexpress, it is not even comparable how much better portable solution it is even against the tiniest wired portable dac/amp. Iphones output can't come close to the SQ that this BT dac/amp will deliver. I listen mainly to streams though and was not able to tell the difference between wired and BT dac/amp. I can't imagine ever again carrying wired dac/amp and being worried about bent cable/loss of signal and just being a messy combo with phone, espeially when you need to use it. My phones battery drain as well is forgotten
 
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Jul 25, 2020 at 11:16 AM Post #14,061 of 17,336
Bluetooth codecs where made purely for audio transmission and connectivity with devices that doesn't require much data to be passed, don't get mistaken by wireless video streams, these are different beasts with dedicated antennas, different hardware and protocols are used there. BT could never achieve such speeds and In no shape or form it could deliver video stream, but good thing for us it seems that for audio it doesn't need much. Only issue is pairing and how devices used for audio en-codes and decodes data passed over BT.

No, bluetooth was created for data transmission, not just audio. Early applications were also for door locks. Bluetooth 4.0 has a speed of 25Mbps: high enough for 4K video. Here are video profiles currently available with Bluetooth:

Audio/Video Assigned Numbers
 
Jul 25, 2020 at 11:20 AM Post #14,062 of 17,336
Bluetooth codecs where made purely for audio transmission and connectivity with devices that doesn't require much data to be passed, don't get mistaken by wireless video streams, these are different beasts with dedicated antennas, different hardware and protocols are used there. BT could never achieve such speeds and In no shape or form it could deliver video stream, but good thing for us it seems that for audio it doesn't need much. Only issue is pairing and how devices used for audio en-codes and decodes data passed over BT.
Under the BT naming, they now use something that's pretty much wifi. At least it's way closer to wifi than it is to the original rubbish that was BT back in the days.
My own experience is that I am now more often annoyed by the hissing amp in some portable headphones, than by any form of audible or practical restriction from BT.
 
Jul 25, 2020 at 11:42 AM Post #14,063 of 17,336
No, bluetooth was created for data transmission, not just audio. Early applications were also for door locks. Bluetooth 4.0 has a speed of 25Mbps: high enough for 4K video. Here are video profiles currently available with Bluetooth:

Audio/Video Assigned Numbers


This is the link of what bluetooth is “capable” off.. As I said in BT connectivity numbers doesn’t have much in common with real-life experience. Better show me an app/phone that is capable to transmit video over BT. Ok if not found at least give me a codec which transmits video over BT :) Large speeds can be achieved with wifi, but many things needs to be considered as well, overlay with other networks, setup, distance. Large part of my job is with such IT infra networks. Don’t missguide people, BT doesn’t have such throughput

BT and wifi are different things, even though the concept looks similar
 
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Jul 25, 2020 at 12:15 PM Post #14,064 of 17,336
This is the link of what bluetooth is “capable” off.. As I said in BT connectivity numbers doesn’t have much in common with real-life experience. Better show me an app/phone that is capable to transmit video over BT. Ok if not found at least give me a codec which transmits video over BT :) Large speeds can be achieved with wifi, but many things needs to be considered as well, overlay with other networks, setup, distance. Large part of my job is with such IT infra networks

BT and wifi are different sings, even concept is similar BT won’t be able to achieve what wifi has to offer, but it doesn’t nees to

No, this link lists the actual current protocols. I'm not sure if you read the link, as it clearly states media type 1 is video, and MPEG-4 is an accepted codec (and h.263 is actually an older format). Probably from when it was first used for connecting digital cameras with cell phonesl. Wifi is more standard for transmitting video, but there are still uses for having point to point data transmission. I am involved with software development and do know what wifi is, thanks. I'm also involved with video production. Your claim that bluetooth won't be able to have speeds for video is easily disproven. It's even theoritically possible to transmit 4K with BT 4.0: compressed 4K for streaming is usually around 20Mbps.

2014: 6 Bluetooth Enabled Cameras to Connect & Enhance your Smartphone
 
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Jul 25, 2020 at 12:45 PM Post #14,065 of 17,336
No, this link lists the actual current protocols. I'm not sure if you read the link, as it clearly states media type 1 is video, and MPEG-4 is an accepted codec (and h.263 is actually an older format). Probably from when it was first used for connecting digital cameras with cell phonesl. Wifi is more standard for transmitting video, but there are still uses for having point to point data transmission. I am involved with software development and do know what wifi is, thanks. I'm also involved with video production. Your claim that bluetooth won't be able to have speeds for video is easily disproven. It's even theoritically possible to transmit 4K with BT 4.0: compressed 4K for streaming is usually around 20Mbps.

2014: 6 Bluetooth Enabled Cameras to Connect & Enhance your Smartphone

Your link has nothing to do with streaming video/audio and this magical 24mbit/s is not over the bluetooth. Different purpose and different protocols are being used, you should be aware of such in software dev. Streaming audio via BT doesn't have good throughput, no protocols are available for video. Data upload/download works completely different than streaming as it can simply push data in larger chunks without worrying of any latency and simply re-try with any packets lost.

Bluetooth can support old MPEG-4 I'm not denying that, but show me the protocol which carries video stream over BT.

Ignore those "BT" advertised nonsense, they have nothing to do of what we hear and how real BT works in reality. Best guide below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth


In same link you can find BT protocol stack:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth#/media/File:Bluetooth_protokoly.svg
 
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Jul 25, 2020 at 1:15 PM Post #14,066 of 17,336
Your link has nothing to do with streaming video/audio and this magical 24mbit/s is not over the bluetooth. Different purpose and different protocols are being used, you should be aware of such in software dev. Streaming audio via BT doesn't have good throughput, no protocols are available for video. Data upload/download works completely different than streaming as it can simply push data in larger chunks without worrying of any latency and simply re-try with any packets lost.

Ignore those "BT" advertised nonsense, they have nothing to do of what we hear over BT connection. Best guide below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth

My link does: it shows actual application of an external camera as essentially a webcam for smartphone (what a remote interface uses). I can't believe you're accusing me of misguiding people. One doesn't need to be in IT: you clearly are not reading any source. You don't believe my source from bluetooth themselves, that list the actual protocols!! Being in software development, I do have to read what material from the creators of a standard. I would assume someone who claims to be in IT would also need to. But an example from a developer forum, that's not some future hypothetical:rolling_eyes::

2012: Android: How to transfer video and audio via bluetooth connection?
2016: Video Streaming over bluetooth

And apparently, you don't read your link:

List of applications
  • Live video streaming to the visual cortical implant device by Nabeel Fattah in Newcastle university 2017.[42]"

And the real indicator...bluetooth has the A/V Distribution Transport Protocol. If it didn't have video standards, it would be called Audio Transport Protocol....not Audio/Video!!
 
Jul 25, 2020 at 1:27 PM Post #14,067 of 17,336
My link does: it shows actual application of an external camera as essentially a webcam for smartphone (what a remote interface uses). I can't believe you're accusing me of misguiding people. One doesn't need to be in IT: you clearly are not reading any source. You don't believe my source from bluetooth themselves, that list the actual protocols!! Being in software development, I do have to read what material from the creators of a standard. I would assume someone who claims to be in IT would also need to. But an example from a developer forum, that's not some future hypothetical:rolling_eyes::

2012: Android: How to transfer video and audio via bluetooth connection?
2016: Video Streaming over bluetooth

And apparently, you don't read your link:



And the real indicator...bluetooth has the A/V Distribution Transport Protocol. If it didn't have video standards, it would be called Audio Transport Protocol....not Audio/Video!!


I don’t want to go back and forth with you. This A/V is just:

“The Audio/Video Distribution Transport Protocol (AVDTP) is used by the advanced audio distribution (A2DP) profile to stream music to stereo headsets over an L2CAPchannel intended for video distribution profile in the Bluetooth”


High throughput over “BT” is basically carried over LAN using protocol IEEE802 and both devices needs to have such.

Sorry I didn’t want to be rude, but go through wiki page it will explain a lot. If you would be able to push high throughput over BT reliably, you would become very rich in days time.
 
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Jul 25, 2020 at 1:36 PM Post #14,068 of 17,336
I don’t want to go back and forth with you.

Something I agree with: can't have a constructive exchange with someone who denies facts presented to them (current BT video protocols).
 
Jul 25, 2020 at 1:39 PM Post #14,069 of 17,336
Something I agree with: can't have a constructive exchange with someone who denies facts presented to them (current BT video protocols).


correction no dedicated video protocols over BT due to its nature and limitations :)
 
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Jul 25, 2020 at 1:54 PM Post #14,070 of 17,336
correction no dedicated video protocols over BT due to its nature and limitations :)

Since you have been editing your posts and backpedaling about forms of transmission over bluetooth....bluetooth still has VIDEO protocols (not just audio). Bluetooth's own site lists numbers for A/V distribution for assigning streams. And as Stack Overflow indicates: bluetooth RFCOMM channels are most used for transmission video.
 

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