Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jul 29, 2018 at 12:46 PM Post #9,376 of 17,336
I am not sure it says anything other than the person in question refuses to let hi fi hogwash stand untested. I feel similar about subjects where I feel at home ie music, art and nature. If and when someone comes along and fx claims that Max Ernst was a mean trombonist I would have a hard time keeping my mouth shut.
Conversely, had I been working with music all of my life, the production of music as well as all the gear behind it and then stumble across folks spewing bollocks, I'd most likely do the same.
Hell we've got plenty of room for bs on head fi, the "problem" in this particular thread is that people don't take too kindly to sorcery backed up by anecdotal 'evidence' and as a consequence of this call out posters who make extraordinary claims.
 
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Jul 29, 2018 at 4:49 PM Post #9,377 of 17,336
Ultrasonics.. I can't hear anything above 17K near as I can tell. Apparently my dog has no issues as the test tones sparked her interest and/or annoyance. At least I know it is making noise up there!
 
Jul 29, 2018 at 5:38 PM Post #9,378 of 17,336
What I'm still trying to figure out is: do ultrasonics have a subliminal affect on music listeners??

And do the harmonic products of multiple ultrasonics make their way 'back down' where humans hear?

Does this influence some listener's preferences for analog over digital, or vice versa?

Personally my hearing shelfs off like the Cayman Wall at around 14kHz, so it's no difference to me! I'm just trying to get to the crux of this debate. :D
 
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Jul 30, 2018 at 2:23 AM Post #9,379 of 17,336
What I'm still trying to figure out is: do ultrasonics have a subliminal affect on music listeners??
At the level they occur in music,no, there is no evidence of this.
And do the harmonic products of multiple ultrasonics make their way 'back down' where humans hear?
Harmonic products, no. Intermodulation products, possibly under certain circumstances, but the audibility of these signals is dependent of their level (they’ll always be much lower than the signals that intermodulated to produce them, which are already quite low) and the musical content in the same portion of the spectrum, which will mask lower level signals.
Does this influence some listener's preferences for analog over digital, or vice versa?
No, because high frequency IMD is not unique to either analog or digital systems.
Personally my hearing shelfs off like the Cayman Wall at around 14kHz, so it's no difference to me! I'm just trying to get to the crux of this debate. :D
You’re doing better than the center of the bell curve. Lots of early hearing damage in the population these days. The extreme highs are the first to go.
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 5:57 AM Post #9,380 of 17,336
“Most importantly, [good disagreements] are never based on a misunderstanding. On the contrary, the disagreements arise from perfect comprehension; from having chewed over the ideas of your intellectual opponent so thoroughly that you can properly spit them out. In other words, to disagree well you must first understand well. You have to read deeply, listen carefully, watch closely. You need to grant your adversary moral respect; give him the intellectual benefit of doubt; have sympathy for his motives and participate empathically with his line of reasoning. And you need to allow for the possibility that you might yet be persuaded of what he has to say.”

That is why the disagreement with AS is not "good". I realise that from the outside looking in, it might seem as if I and some others are not granting AS "moral respect", have not attempted to comprehend or sympathize with his ideas and do not allow for the possibility of being persuaded. To an extent this observation is correct but let's frame the situation in a more widely comprehensible way: How would you have a "good" disagreement with a flat earther? Would you "allow for the possibility that you might be persuaded" that the earth is flat? It is possible to understand and to some extent sympathise with a flat earther's "line of reasoning" but it's not really possible to grant them "the intellectual benefit of doubt" because their position largely depends on discarding intellect in the first place.

Does this analogy with flat earthers appear harsh to you? If so, why? What's the difference between the flat earther scenario and the scenario in which we often find ourselves with AS? There's only one difference: The flat earth scenario is famous. Almost everyone knows about it, they know a fair amount of the actual evidence demonstrating the earth is not flat, they have enough understanding of how human eyesight works, they also know that if the earth were flat then much/most of science would have to be discarded and in addition, it would require a conspiracy lasting many decades, involving hundreds of thousands of scientists and all the countries in the world, some of whom are enemies. Intellectually and rationally, it's all completely inconceivable. This is not the case with many of AS's assertions, almost everyone does NOT know about the issue/s, have not seen the actual evidence, do not have enough understanding of how human hearing works, do not realise that if they were true then a large portion of science would have to be discarded and that there would need to be a massive, inconceivable conspiracy covering many decades, countless thousands of scientists and hundreds of thousands of professional practitioners. In other words, there is no difference with the flat earther scenario, except in terms of the general population's familiarity with it!

G
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 6:23 AM Post #9,381 of 17,336
That is why the disagreement with AS is not "good". I realise that from the outside looking in, it might seem as if I and some others are not granting AS "moral respect", have not attempted to comprehend or sympathize with his ideas and do not allow for the possibility of being persuaded. To an extent this observation is correct but let's frame the situation in a more widely comprehensible way: How would you have a "good" disagreement with a flat earther? Would you "allow for the possibility that you might be persuaded" that the earth is flat? It is possible to understand and to some extent sympathise with a flat earther's "line of reasoning" but it's not really possible to grant them "the intellectual benefit of doubt" because their position largely depends on discarding intellect in the first place.

Does this analogy with flat earthers appear harsh to you? If so, why? What's the difference between the flat earther scenario and the scenario in which we often find ourselves with AS? There's only one difference: The flat earth scenario is famous. Almost everyone knows about it, they know a fair amount of the actual evidence demonstrating the earth is not flat, they have enough understanding of how human eyesight works, they also know that if the earth were flat then much/most of science would have to be discarded and in addition, it would require a conspiracy lasting many decades, involving hundreds of thousands of scientists and all the countries in the world, some of whom are enemies. Intellectually and rationally, it's all completely inconceivable. This is not the case with many of AS's assertions, almost everyone does NOT know about the issue/s, have not seen the actual evidence, do not have enough understanding of how human hearing works, do not realise that if they were true then a large portion of science would have to be discarded and that there would need to be a massive, inconceivable conspiracy covering many decades, countless thousands of scientists and hundreds of thousands of professional practitioners. In other words, there is no difference with the flat earther scenario, except in terms of the general population's familiarity with it!

G
There is one big fly in the above ointment - Earth has been proven not to be flat ( pics from any high enough flying machine show either curvature or, further away, nicely slightly squashed "ball" we live on ) - the inaudibility/ non-perception of ultrasound has been not.

I realize there WILL be any resistance mountable activated - as its universal adoption would mean almost all present equipment in the studios is obsolete. And financial repercussion to get it right is beyond the imagination - so, ther IS bound to be resistance.

They - authorities, peer approved colleagues, etc - tried to set torch to the guy who said Eppur si muove - didn't they ?
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 8:00 AM Post #9,382 of 17,336
There is one big fly in the above ointment - Earth has been proven not to be flat ( pics from any high enough flying machine show either curvature or, further away, nicely slightly squashed "ball" we live on ) - the inaudibility/ non-perception of ultrasound has been not.

The flat earthers' argument is that the Earth has NOT "been proven to not be flat", pics from high enough flying machines can be manipulated and/or faked, like any other pics/photos and therefore the pics are NOT proof. This assertion is true, pics do NOT prove the Earth is flat. The reason the flat earthers are wrong is because they are contradicting the known science and because the sheer number of pics from different sources would require a conspiracy of photograph fakery involving countless scientists and space professionals from numerous countries, over a period of many decades, a conspiracy that is both unprecedented and rationally unbelievable. There's a huge amount of evidence that ultrasound at the levels present in music is inaudible and none at all supporting the claim that we can. Suggesting that we can hear it, contradicts the known science and would require a conspiracy between countless scientists and audio professionals that is both unprecedented and rationally unbelievable. Rather than being a "fly in the ointment", your statement actually achieves the EXACT OPPOSITE and entirely supports my last post; that there is no difference between your position and that of a flat earther!

I realize there WILL be any resistance mountable activated - as its universal adoption would mean almost all present equipment in the studios is obsolete. And financial repercussion to get it right is beyond the imagination - so, ther IS bound to be resistance.

Yep, EXACTLY the same as the flat earther argument. There's tons of resistance to the idea of a flat earth - as it's universal adoption would mean almost all present GPS and navigation equipment is obsolete. And financial repercussions to get it right is beyond the imagination - so, ther IS bound to be resistance.

Thanks, I don't think you could have provided better supporting evidence for my last post if you deliberately tried!!!

Is this logical black hole you've just dug for yourself going to change your approach? I very much doubt it, you've done it quite a few times previously and ALWAYS either completely failed to even recognise that you've dug an embarrassing hole for yourself or just completely ignored it and carried on anyway, pretending that it never happened. Such a response requires a powerful level of delusion indeed!

G
 
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Jul 30, 2018 at 8:20 AM Post #9,383 of 17,336
The flat earthers' argument is that the Earth has NOT "been proven to not be flat", pics from high enough flying machines can be manipulated and/or faked, like any other pics/photos and therefore the pics are NOT proof. This assertion is true, pics do NOT prove the Earth is flat. The reason the flat earthers are wrong is because they are contradicting the known science and because the sheer number of pics from different sources would require a conspiracy of photograph fakery involving countless scientists and space professionals from numerous countries, over a period of many decades, a conspiracy that is both unprecedented and rationally unbelievable. There's a huge amount of evidence that ultrasound at the levels present in music is inaudible and none at all supporting the claim that we can. Suggesting that we can hear it, contradicts the known science and would require a conspiracy between countless scientists and audio professionals that is both unprecedented and rationally unbelievable. Rather than being a "fly in the ointment", your statement actually achieves the EXACT OPPOSITE and entirely supports my last post; that there is no difference between your position and that of a flat earther!



Yep, EXACTLY the same as the flat earther argument. There's tons of resistance to the idea of a flat earth - as it's universal adoption would mean almost all present GPS and navigation equipment is obsolete. And financial repercussions to get it right is beyond the imagination - so, ther IS bound to be resistance.

Thanks, I don't think you could have provided better supporting evidence for my last post if you deliberately tried!!!

Is this logical black hole you've just dug for yourself going to change your approach? I very much doubt it, you've done it quite a few times previously and ALWAYS either completely failed to even recognise that you've dug an embarrassing hole for yourself or just completely ignored it and carried on anyway, pretending that it never happened. Such a response requires a powerful level of delusion indeed!

G

Well, just look what has been done to Tesla ; the moment he wanted to give electricity to the people - FOR FREE - all the plugs have been pulled away from his projects. His lab burned to the ground.

Because it interfered with bu$$ine$$ a$ u$ual . Which has as a prime goal PROFIT - & some more of it.

Not because it was not doable. Or true. Or right thing to do. And the same people ( or their offsprings ) are still trying to keep everything he did under the wraps - with self-appointed right to use Deadly Force against anyone thinking otherwise.

If you utter as much as an "a" in response to the above, you'll only show whose pockets you're in.
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 8:37 AM Post #9,384 of 17,336
1. Did Tesla prove that ultrasonic freqs are audible and that the earth is flat?
2. In your delusion, do you see yourself as a modern day Nikola Tesla?

G
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 8:50 AM Post #9,385 of 17,336
I think that a lot of people would find this to be a worthwhile 17 minutes: https://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong

She makes the points that when people are arguing, the tendency is to first assume the other party is ignorant (they will understand and agree once you educate them), then if that fails assume that they're stupid (they can't think logically and are hopelessly overridden with biases, etc.), and at the last step of exasperation assume that they're evil (intentionally causing problems, such as by trolling). We see all of this played out in Sound Science discussions. She also notes that there are emotional factors which inhibit our considering that we may be wrong - it feels bad to be wrong, especially when the stakes are substantial.

The main issue I see with resolving audio debates is that, while the engineering and measurement aspects are quite mature, our understanding of sound/music perception is still relatively immature, so it's difficult to conclusively rule out the possibility that certain differences (or potential differences) in objective sounds and signals make a difference in conscious and/or subconscious perception.
 
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Jul 30, 2018 at 8:57 AM Post #9,386 of 17,336
I think that a lot of people would find this to be a worthwhile 17 minutes: https://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong

She makes the points that when people are arguing, the tendency is to first assume the other party is ignorant (they will understand and agree once you educate them), then if that fails assume that they're stupid (they can't think logically and are hopelessly overridden with biases, etc.), and at the last step of exasperation assume that they're evil (intentionally causing problems, such as by trolling). We see all of this played out in Sound Science discussions. She also notes that there are emotional factors which inhibit our considering that we may be wrong - it feels bad to be wrong, especially when the stakes are substantial.

The main issue I see with resolving audio debates is that, while the engineering and measurement aspects are quite mature, our understanding of sound/music perception is still relatively immature, so it's difficult to conclusively rule out the possibility that certain differences (or potential differences) in objective sounds and signals make a difference in conscious and/or subconscious perception.

I don't think that others replying to my posts in particular are "wrong". I just believe that their answers are motivated by the business they're in. IE: A Mastering Engineer will stalwartly declare the remaster of a given album to be superior to previous releases. What else would they say? "It depends"? Yeah that'll inspire confidence in a lot of existing and potential clients, lol! You have to talk the talk, y'know? Not a question of absolute right vs. wrong, just a matter of what's the right thing to say in a given situation.
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 9:25 AM Post #9,387 of 17,336
[1] She makes the points that when people are arguing, the tendency is to first assume the other party is ignorant (they will understand and agree once you educate them), then if that fails assume that they're stupid (they can't think logically and are hopelessly overridden with biases, etc.), and at the last step of exasperation assume that they're evil (intentionally causing problems, such as by trolling).
[1a] We see all of this played out in Sound Science discussions.
[2] The main issue I see with resolving audio debates is that, while the engineering and measurement aspects are quite mature, our understanding of sound/music perception is still relatively immature, [2a] so it's difficult to conclusively rule out the possibility that certain differences (or potential differences) in objective sounds and signals make a difference in conscious and/or subconscious perception.

1. You didn't answer any of the questions, you just repeated exactly the same thing using a different quote/wording. OK, let's take your different wording then: In an argument with a flat earther, would your tendency be "to first assume the other party is ignorant"? If so, why?
1a. Yes we do and for exactly the same reason. Again, would you assume a flat earther is ignorant and if so, why?

2. This brings us right back to my previous response to you, the issue of familiarity. The "issue I see" and "our understanding of sound/music perception". How familiar are you with "our" understanding? When you say "our understanding" do you really mean just YOUR understanding and the issue YOU "see"? Clearly, the understanding of music perception is not immature, unless you consider about 6 centuries or so to be immature? Understanding of sound perception is less mature, 90 or so years but it's still pretty mature. This invalidates your next statement...
2a. So no, it's NOT difficult to conclusively rule out the possibility that certain differences in objective signals make a difference to perception. Unless, you are NOT familiar with the issues or "our" (humankind/science/professional practitioners) understanding !!!!

G
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 9:49 AM Post #9,388 of 17,336
1. You didn't answer any of the questions, you just repeated exactly the same thing using a different quote/wording. OK, let's take your different wording then: In an argument with a flat earther, would your tendency be "to first assume the other party is ignorant"? If so, why?
1a. Yes we do and for exactly the same reason. Again, would you assume a flat earther is ignorant and if so, why?

2. This brings us right back to my previous response to you, the issue of familiarity. The "issue I see" and "our understanding of sound/music perception". How familiar are you with "our" understanding? When you say "our understanding" do you really mean just YOUR understanding and the issue YOU "see"? Clearly, the understanding of music perception is not immature, unless you consider about 6 centuries or so to be immature? Understanding of sound perception is less mature, 90 or so years but it's still pretty mature. This invalidates your next statement...
2a. So no, it's NOT difficult to conclusively rule out the possibility that certain differences in objective signals make a difference to perception. Unless, you are NOT familiar with the issues or "our" (humankind/science/professional practitioners) understanding !!!!

G

I don't think the flat earther comparison is a good one. The evidence that the earth isn't flat is overwhelming enough that I've never met a person who asserted that the earth is flat, nor run across one online. By comparison, many issues related to audio have plenty of proponents on both sides, and the evidence isn't sufficient to conclusively resolve the issues.

Regarding my knowledge of auditory and music perception, it's based mostly on reading the professional/scientific literature, as well as my own experiences with listening tests. Based on that, I consider our collective understanding to be fairly immature.
 
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Jul 30, 2018 at 9:53 AM Post #9,389 of 17,336
I just believe that their answers are motivated by the business they're in. IE: A Mastering Engineer will stalwartly declare the remaster of a given album to be superior to previous releases. What else would they say?

Well, they could say: "That remaster is crap, if you'd come to me instead it would have been much better"! You're belief is based on "the business they're in" and therefore the motivation for mastering engineers' answers. Unfortunately, you don't appear to have much knowledge of "the business they're in", for starters it's very highly competitive. It's not a bunch of unionised technical engineers who all do exactly the same thing and automatically support all other engineers. In reality, my answer is the more likely one, although it's likely to be rather more diplomatic!

G
 
Jul 30, 2018 at 10:39 AM Post #9,390 of 17,336
Nikola Tesla was a most interesting fellow. He was certainly a genius, and invented many extremely brilliant and useful inventions. However, to be blunt, he also had some pretty wacky ideas, and many of his ideas for inventions turned out to be entirely impractical, or even wildly impractical and dangerous. (If you recall, for all that DaVinci was a genius, many of his ideas for flying machines are obviously silly and couldn't possibly work - based on modern engineering knowledge.)

However, as for Tesla.....we currently do our best to avoid unnecessary electrical noise, and excessive amounts of airborne electromagnetic radiation are generally considered something to be avoided, and even potentially dangerous. For example, exactly how dangerous it is to live directly under a high-tension power line is still disputed. Tesla's wonderful idea to "bring free power to everyone" involved broadcasting so much power into the atmosphere that you could, literally, hang a fluorescent tube on your wall and light your house.... In other words, his goal was to deliberately generate so much electrical noise, and transmit it through every square inch of the atmosphere, that it could light a bulb, or power an electric airplane. By today's standards, this would have exceeded "safe allowable limits" by a factor of at least tens of thousands of times. However, when Tesla came up with the idea, having massive amounts of high-frequency energy beamed through your body simply wasn't understood to be dangerous. In other words, by today's occupational safety limits, he wouldn't have been allowed to even turn on his prototype with a human anywhere near it. I used to live on Long Island, where his original facility was built, and there were stories about how, when he fired up his "small prototype", it scared horses pulling carriages because it caused lightning bolts to jump from telegraph poles to the ground five MILES away - which many people considered to be "annoying and dangerous". (I just wanted to point out that not ALL of what Tesla came up with was genius, or even useful, or safe. However, your basic assertion, which was that many of his inventions failed to get backing, or were even opposed, purely for financial reasons, was entirely true.)

As for "our understanding of how we perceive music and sound", I think I might choose a different analogy that the shape of the Earth. When I went to school we learned that all matter was made up of subatomic particles called protons, neutrons, and electrons. These were basically little hard bits of "stuff", indivisible into smaller pieces, which made up all matter. Note that this model of how things worked was actually pretty good - it explained most things to do with physics and chemistry - and even how atomic bombs worked. However, nowadays, we all know that it was also vastly oversimplified.... since, contrary to what we thought, those "tiny indivisible particles" are made up of smaller particles after all, and none of them are actually particles anyway, but merely little bundles of energy of a special sort. In short, the story has gotten much more complicated as we've learned more of the details.

I suggest that much the same is true for our understanding of how we perceive sounds and music. Most of the original research of things like "thresholds of perception" was based on the assumption that, since all sound waves are made up of some combination of sine waves, we can understand how it all works by experimenting with pure steady state sine waves. And it was widely accepted that our ears worked strictly like a mechanical spectrum analyzer, with each little hair cell responding to a specific frequency, and simply signalling whether that frequency was present or not. Now we know that, for example, our brains can respond in very complex and interesting ways when multiple signals are present at the same time, or when they are received in a certain sequential order. We can even hear or not hear one sound altogether - depending on whether our brain has been "primed" by some previous event.... which needn't even be a sound. (In fact, since our brains process many things in parallel, and often at different rates, we can even be influenced to hear or not hear a sound by something that occurs after it.)

Therefore, while I DO believe it's fair to say that little or no proof exists that we are influenced by ultrasonic sounds we don't "consciously hear", I think it's also fair to say that no proof exists that we are NOT influenced by them either. Since it has always been assumed that they are irrelevant - little research has been done either way. Likewise, little research has been done to determine the exact effects of small time-dependent effects like ringing on what we hear. (As someone pointed out in a slightly different context... It serves the existing commercial interests better to have certain people assume that they may be audible, and for it to remain a matter of debate, than it does to spend a lot of money doing the detailed tests necessary to prove the point one way or the other. Everyone is happy to continuing assuming what they believe is true; and nobody is motivated to spend the amount of money necessary to actually find out.)

Just to put the claims I'm making on a specific technical basis... I assert that...

I will provide you with a 3D representation of a human brain and a recording of a section of a music file. If we play that file, for a live human subject, hooked up to a real fMRI, and you can predict in advance the exact level of stimulation each portion of their brain will show at every moment during playback, and how they will describe what they perceive, then I will accept a claim that "you fully understand the phenomenon". However, if you cannot do so, then I expect you to concede that "you do not actually understand every detail of what's going on".

Note that, when it comes to the shape of the Earth, any good quality GPS system can provide PRECISELY that level of proof that "it really does know the real correct shape of the Earth".

The final proof of any scientific theory or model is the ability to predict future events. (And any failure to predict any event with perfect accuracy indicates a flaw or gap in the model or theory.)

Well, just look what has been done to Tesla ; the moment he wanted to give electricity to the people - FOR FREE - all the plugs have been pulled away from his projects. His lab burned to the ground.

Because it interfered with bu$$ine$$ a$ u$ual . Which has as a prime goal PROFIT - & some more of it.

Not because it was not doable. Or true. Or right thing to do. And the same people ( or their offsprings ) are still trying to keep everything he did under the wraps - with self-appointed right to use Deadly Force against anyone thinking otherwise.

If you utter as much as an "a" in response to the above, you'll only show whose pockets you're in.
 
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