[bigshot]

The point that was being made, Sonic is that price is a terrible way to judge sound quality. It may have some affect on the quality of transducers, but when it comes to cables, amps, players and DACs, a high price tag is no guarantee of improved sound fidelity... at least within the audible range. Yesterday I was in the Head-Fi Facebook group and I read a guy saying, "If you think a $100 DAC and a $10K DAC sound the same, you are either deaf or on crack." That is the general consensus in high end audio. For every dollar you spend, you get better sound. They talk about the law of diminishing returns, but then they turn around and say that the difference between a good system and a truly great one is the last 2% that spending a lot of money will buy.

I've done controlled comparisons. I know the truth. The fact is that you can pretty much go to Amazon and randomly choose any cable, DAC, player or amp and as long as the amp has sufficient power, they will all sound the same to human ears. I've been searching for the elusive "different sounding component" in the wild for years. I've had people argue with me endlessly telling me that they believe that something out there is audibly different. But no one has been able to point to any clear examples.

Money can't buy you love. And when it comes to audio electronics, it can't buy you fidelity either.

 

[prescient]

Mostly agree with the above. Your amp needs to have reasonable output impedance, but you can get that with an SMSL Idea for ~$80. If you look at some headphones like Campfire Audio's Andromeda you can see that output impedance does impact the frequency response.

On topic, to some extent I think the problem with head-fi is that people have anchored on the speaker hi-fi world. If I'm into speakers and I want great sound there is really only one way to achieve that. I need a dedicated listening room that is reasonably sized that has been acoustically treated. If I can't get that as a baseline I'm probably out of luck. In my living room I have hardwood floors, plaster walls and per my wife that is how it is staying. This room will never sound great no matter how much DSP I throw at it. I suspect many people face the same issue.

So what do speaker people do? In a quest to get a better sound I suspect most people just keep upgrading their gear in the hope that their system will become more resolving. Perhaps as resolving as the room in their local hi-fi dealer. The problem is that when I look at the rooms in my local dealer (very nice) they have been acoustically treated by professionals and are filled with really nice gear. Knowing that you can't have the room you hope/assume that if you get the right combination of gear you'll be 80% of the way there. The problem is that the sound quality is 50% speakers, 45% room and 5% gear, and I might be overestimating the importance of the speakers as I obviously made this split up.

Back to head-fi I think the same thing happens, but a little differently. People run up against the limitations of headphones as device to convey music. I've never heard a pair of headphones that stacks up well against a good pair of speakers in an acoustically treated room. I suspect I never will despite the fact that I've listened to some nice headphones. So what happens when you run up against this wall? You start buying expensive cables, DACs, and amps in the hope that it'll make your headphones more resolving despite the fact that they are design limited. Better yet you've seen all the speaker guys with really high end setups do similar when their stereos aren't performing. They must know what they are doing so we should emulate them. Then I buy my $430 silver plated cable and placebo kicks in!

I highly doubt any of this is new or original thought. I'm really just piling on.

I suspect headphones won't get much better sounding until we start using DSP and constructing drivers differently. My wildly uninformed view is that we are attempting to use electrical/mechanical engineering to develop headphones with target frequency response curves. I suspect a more straight forward task from an engineering perspective would be to construct drivers (or multiple drivers!) that measure flat-ish and use DSP/active crossovers to match target frequency responses. Audeze notably (and Sonoma) has done this to some extent with their Cypher cable and it is a small step in the right direction.

 

[bigshot]

In my home living room I have hardwood floors, plaster walls and per my wife that is how it is staying. This room will never sound great no matter how much DSP I throw at it. I suspect many people face the same issue.

I solved that problem by not having a wife. My listening room is great! All my married friends come over to my house to listen to music and watch movies.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

I solved that problem by not having a wife. My listening room is great! All my married friends come over to my house to listen to music and watch movies.

Just remember: A spouse is what happens when you aren't seeking one.

Advice I wish I could go back 25 years and warn my college age self of!

 

[analogsurviver]

I solved that problem by not having a wife. My listening room is great! All my married friends come over to my house to listen to music and watch movies.

You can never be sure when you bump into / step onto the "mine" ...

 

[TheSonicTruth]

You can never be sure when you bump into / step onto the "mine" ...

LOL, dude, I was sooo afraid, at 22-23, of growing into an old bachelor, I pursued every girl on campus! Until a grad student I had a fling with and ultimately went sour, called campus police on me. That is what I would go back in time to tell 'myself' to knock it off!

 

[KeithEmo]

I think it depends on what you're looking for.

Headphones simply do not present the same sort of sound stage as speakers.
However, as far as resolving detail, I've never heard a pair of speakers at any price that could match a decent pair of electrostatic headphones.
(Even electrostatic speakers have serious limitations that electrostatic headphones don't have.)

Mostly agree with the above. Your amp needs to have reasonable output impedance, but you can get that with an SMSL Idea for ~$80. If you look at some headphones like Campfire Audio's Andromeda you can see that output impedance does impact the frequency response.

On topic, to some extent I think the problem with head-fi is that people have anchored on the speaker hi-fi world. If I'm into speakers and I want great sound there is really only one way to achieve that. I need a dedicated listening room that is reasonably sized that has been acoustically treated. If I can't get that as a baseline I'm probably out of luck. In my living room I have hardwood floors, plaster walls and per my wife that is how it is staying. This room will never sound great no matter how much DSP I throw at it. I suspect many people face the same issue.

So what do speaker people do? In a quest to get a better sound I suspect most people just keep upgrading their gear in the hope that their system will become more resolving. Perhaps as resolving as the room in their local hi-fi dealer. The problem is that when I look at the rooms in my local dealer (very nice) they have been acoustically treated by professionals and are filled with really nice gear. Knowing that you can't have the room you hope/assume that if you get the right combination of gear you'll be 80% of the way there. The problem is that the sound quality is 50% speakers, 45% room and 5% gear, and I might be overestimating the importance of the speakers as I obviously made this split up.

Back to head-fi I think the same thing happens, but a little differently. People run up against the limitations of headphones as device to convey music. I've never heard a pair of headphones that stacks up well against a good pair of speakers in an acoustically treated room. I suspect I never will despite the fact that I've listened to some nice headphones. So what happens when you run up against this wall? You start buying expensive cables, DACs, and amps in the hope that it'll make your headphones more resolving despite the fact that they are design limited. Better yet you've seen all the speaker guys with really high end setups do similar when their stereos aren't performing. They must know what they are doing so we should emulate them. Then I buy my $430 silver plated cable and placebo kicks in!

I highly doubt any of this is new or original thought. I'm really just piling on.

I suspect headphones won't get much better sounding until we start using DSP and constructing drivers differently. My wildly uninformed view is that we are attempting to use electrical/mechanical engineering to develop headphones with target frequency response curves. I suspect a more straight forward task from an engineering perspective would be to construct drivers (or multiple drivers!) that measure flat-ish and use DSP/active crossovers to match target frequency responses. Audeze notably (and Sonoma) has done this to some extent with their Cypher cable and it is a small step in the right direction.

 

[bigshot]

Detail is useful for sound editing and applying noise reduction. I use headphones for those things. For listening to music, speakers sound much more natural and more engaging.

 

[prescient]

This is interesting. I feel like I can better hear details at my dealer’s room and sometimes on my home monitors (Genelec) than my headphones.

I’ve had some ok headphones (lcd-3, esp 950, se535, w40s, hd580, etc.) typically using Oppo HA-1 as a source. If the answer is that I’d need to step up to Stax to hear the same details that’s probably a non-starter for me.

The answer could also be that my dealer’s speakers (Magico, Sonus Faber, B&W) have a FR that makes these details sound clearer.

 

[bigshot]

The reason for the detail isn't the amp or the quality of the cans. It's because with headphones, the sound is going straight into your ears. It isn't bouncing around in a room between the speakers and you. However the room is what gives music its dimension and bloom. Personally, I'd rather have the natural dimensional space around the music than to have direct clarity, but that's a personal choice. I imagine most people given the chance would pick speakers over headphones, but not everyone has a proper room for it. So they make up excuses for themselves to justify their situation and try to cherry pick to turn the detriment into some sort of positive. That's not a criticism by the way... that is just how human nature works.

 

[analogsurviver]

I think it depends on what you're looking for.

Headphones simply do not present the same sort of sound stage as speakers.
However, as far as resolving detail, I've never heard a pair of speakers at any price that could match a decent pair of electrostatic headphones.
(Even electrostatic speakers have serious limitations that electrostatic headphones don't have.)

To a point, quite true.

Properly driven electrostatic speakers ( they are rare, and they are, unfortunately, VERY expensive - amp more than the speakers themselves - require rooms > 60 square metres to start singing properly ) can approach a decent pair of electrostatic headphones - or, to be more precise, electrostatic earspeakers. The only representative of this genre still commercially available is Jecklin Float Electrostatic, these days built no longer in Switzerland by Precide SA, but in Germany by Quad Atelier. JJ Float QA have their own thread on head-fi.

On the other hand, I did find a dynamic speaker that can be described as the closest approach to Stax Lambda Pro in speaker world : Technics SB RX-50 . It requires to be refurbished completely and driven by a VERY high damping factor amp ( and cables that do not significantly reduce inherent DF of the amp ). And it needs a very precise positioning in a room rather large compared to its size - particularly side walls have to be minimum 1.5 meres ( preferably more ) from the speakers.

ESL amps ( direct drive, high voltage, OTL ) are an entirely different arena than amps for dynamic transducers. For a number of reasons, forcing the designer to end up using nothing but the best electronic parts available -- and that can get pricey before you know it.

 

[bigshot]

I would much rather find headphones that sound like speakers than the other way around

 

[analogsurviver]

The reason for the detail isn't the amp or the quality of the cans. It's because with headphones, the sound is going straight into your ears. It isn't bouncing around in a room between the speakers and you. However the room is what gives music its dimension and bloom. Personally, I'd rather have the natural dimensional space around the music than to have direct clarity, but that's a personal choice. I imagine most people given the chance would pick speakers over headphones, but not everyone has a proper room for it. So they make up excuses for themselves to justify their situation and try to cherry pick to turn the detriment into some sort of positive. That's not a criticism by the way... that is just how human nature works.

I agree the room is #1 - no dispute about it. It is #1 requirement for decent speaker listening. Many of us realize it and decide against investing in speakers. If the room is not good enough, one can DSP it to death and still not get the desired result.

Direct clarity vs room giving dimension and bloom is debatable. A person can prefer either one.

The fact that I disagree 1000 % with your assertion the reason for the detail isn't in the amp or the quality of the cans is not debatable.
Given a chance for a direct comparison, you would NEVER say an amp that is, according to circuit diagram "the same" as the other, but built with better components, that they sound the same - sometimes not even similar.

It is amusing but not funny to read the circuit diagrams of vintage high quality Sansui gear; in some as remote corner of the diagram as possible, you will find electronic components marked like this R11, C 37, *

that * means "Japanese market only". And that * actually denotes each and every electronic component beyond the standard quality used in consumer electronics otherwise.

Remember, catalogues of audio equipment for export and Japan home market are VERY different - overlapping by only a few midrange models. From bottom to the midrange is export - and from midrange to TOTL is the Japanese home market. I did not care to read how much are the prices - as the only relevant figure is how many zeroes there are.... What a difference the first digit being 1 or 9 can make, if there is at least one ( usually more... ) zeroes too much behind it ?

 

[analogsurviver]

I would much rather find headphones that sound like speakers than the other way around

Me too. What on earth do you think Jecklin Float Electrostatic, AKG K-1000, MySphere 3.1 and similar models are trying to achieve ? Did you audition any of these ?

Not quite there yet, but soon ...

 

[pinnahertz]

The fact that I disagree 1000 % with your assertion the reason for the detail isn't in the amp or the quality of the cans is not debatable.
Given a chance for a direct comparison, you would NEVER say an amp that is, according to circuit diagram "the same" as the other, but built with better components, that they sound the same - sometimes not even similar.

Oh come on. Really? I know it's a total dead end, but....please post the data you obtained from doing a direct, ABX/DBT of two such amps. Don't have it? Then the above statement is completely without substance or verification.

You can disagree 1000% if you like, but you can't back up your point even 0.1%.

It is amusing but not funny to read the circuit diagrams of vintage high quality Sansui gear; in some as remote corner of the diagram as possible, you will find electronic components marked like this R11, C 37, *

that * means "Japanese market only". And that * actually denotes each and every electronic component beyond the standard quality used in consumer electronics otherwise.

Again...you'll need to prove that. Japanese versions of products made for export were also designed to run on a different line voltage, so certain component values would need to be change. Japan is 100V, USA is 120V. Pretty basic, and would, in fact, trigger a number of changes.

Remember, catalogues of audio equipment for export and Japan home market are VERY different - overlapping by only a few midrange models. From bottom to the midrange is export - and from midrange to TOTL is the Japanese home market. I did not care to read how much are the prices - as the only relevant figure is how many zeroes there are.... What a difference the first digit being 1 or 9 can make, if there is at least one ( usually more... ) zeroes too much behind it ?

Yes, that's called "marketing". Change the market, you need to adjust the product to fit. Japan's perceptions are different.