[analogsurviver]

"Much more computing power" than what? You specified a netbook as being a problem earlier on, but those are very, very, very weak machines. What's the actual proof of how much computing power it needs. That JRiver Wiki page you provided was useless. Their minimum system requirements look like they were written years ago. And their recommended system? No one should have to have a solid state drive, which means they are just pulling a fast system out of hat. Meanwhile, the benchmarks list forum page tells one nothing about what's necessary to do the DSD conversion.
But where is the proof? So how are you going to test this theory of yours? Just because you believe it is true doesn't make it true. Provide evidence.

 

"Much more computing power" than what? You specified a netbook as being a problem earlier on, but those are very, very, very weak machines. What's the actual proof of how much computing power it needs. That JRiver Wiki page you provided was useless. Their minimum system requirements look like they were written years ago. And their recommended system? No one should have to have a solid state drive, which means they are just pulling a fast system out of hat. Meanwhile, the benchmarks list forum page tells one nothing about what's necessary to do the DSD conversion.
But where is the proof? So how are you going to test this theory of yours? Just because you believe it is true doesn't make it true. Provide evidence.

Please go to Computer audiophile - these computer audio things change so damn fast, I purposely did not want to link anything from the vanguard of this push for the increased performance - iFi Audio. There are threads here on head-fi, I have just seen they succeeded with firmware update for the MAC users to be finally capable of playing back DSDs with IFi DSD capable DACs, etc, etc - ALMOST ON DAILY BASIS...Same for Androids now kind of coming of age when DSD playback OTG connected DSD capable DACs is concerned - it goes beyond the scope of this thread.
 
Proof ? I did write when it will be commonly available - when ABX tool capable of native playback of PCM and DSD is widely available and with genuinely hirez recordings, be it DSD or PCM/DXD.  Each and every one will be capable to hear it - first probably at dealer's  - and if that will be convincing enough, then in your home.
 
I think I covered the artists and their recordings made at various stages in the history of recorded sound well enough just a post or two above.
 
The general dissatisfaction with sound science is the fact that it persisently concentrates on one single parameter. It IS scientifically correct - but sound recording and playback has MANY stages - and within EACH  stage there are MANY potentially troublesome bottlenecks. The biggest one is the widespread use of multimiking - 
if the signal is so mangled BEFORE it reaches the recorder, it does not matter much if recorder is an old below Sony WMD6 cassette deck - or the latest/fastest recorder in its first beta testing in the field. A MP3 recording made with properly made simple microphone technique will kill any multimiked DSD.
 
There are LOTS of other "bottlenecks" . I know many/most of you are annoyed by my "not playing by the book" methods; but if I wanted to ABX each and every component in say a recorder I changed - I  would still be doing it. Comparing the result of a SINGLE capacitor vs no capacitor is the same as comparing a drop of water against an ocean - with or without that single drop of water. It does not matter - it is overwhelmed by the ocean, that one drop of water notwithstanding.
 
All the defects in this chain from the microphone to our ears do add up; and if you concentrate on playback side only of this story, you lose any influence what you are going to listen to. If *someone* forces on from tomorrow all commercially available recordings can not exceed MP3 96 kbps - game is over. 
 
And CD redbook is not that much above that, on purpose chosen bad MP3 at 96kbps, so that you can better understand what I am after. The difference is of course less than between MP3 96 kbps and redbook, but it makes in the long run for listening experience MUCH closer to real thing, something CD has not, at least to my ears, never been capable of achieving.

 

[bufferoverflow]

analogsurvivor, you asked how it was that your wife could hear the difference with the mat, from another room !
Besides the suggested answers from other posters to that question, I have a very unscientific theory about that :
She loves you and wants you to feel good .. (no, I have no hard scientific proof that "love" exists)
But women are quite good at making others feel good and even care about if they do or don't ..

 

[cel4145]

Please go to Computer audiophile - these computer audio things change so damn fast, I purposely did not want to link anything from the vanguard of this push for the increased performance - iFi Audio. There are threads here on head-fi, I have just seen they succeeded with firmware update for the MAC users to be finally capable of playing back DSDs with IFi DSD capable DACs, etc, etc - ALMOST ON DAILY BASIS...Same for Androids now kind of coming of age when DSD playback OTG connected DSD capable DACs is concerned - it goes beyond the scope of this thread.

Proof ? I did write when it will be commonly available - when ABX tool capable of native playback of PCM and DSD is widely available and with genuinely hirez recordings, be it DSD or PCM/DXD.  Each and every one will be capable to hear it - first probably at dealer's  - and if that will be convincing enough, then in your home.

Yeah. I'm not going to Computer Audiophile. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You don't shrug it off and say go find it.

And if you can't (haven't) ABX tested PCM vs. DSD, you don't have proof of that either.

This is the "Testing audiophile claims and myths," not the "let me tell you why all my subjectivist evaluations are true" thread. It seems you need to go start your own thread somewhere so that you can have the type of discussions you want to have.

 

[analogsurviver]

  analogsurvivor, you asked how it was that your wife could hear the difference with the mat, from another room !
Besides the suggested answers from other posters to that question, I have a very unscientific theory about that :
She loves you and wants you to feel good .. (no, I have no hard scientific proof that "love" exists)
But women are quite good at making others feel good and even care about if they do or don't ..

Hehe - try similar for MANY singers - at least half of which male - for whom I hope they do not feel love for me - males, that is. But they do care about me - because they like my recordings of their singing.
 
Unscientific - yes; less real because of that - no.

 

[analogsurviver]

Yeah. I'm not going to Computer Audiophile. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You don't shrug it off and say go find it.

And if you can't (haven't) ABX tested PCM vs. DSD, you don't have proof of that either.

This is the "Testing audiophile claims and myths," not the "let me tell you why all my subjectivist evaluations are true" thread. It seems you need to go start your own thread somewhere so that you can have the type of discussions you want to have.

Sorry, no point arguing that computer has got to have enough juice to perform its task flawlessly. I did post the Audiogate link and you can try if you do not believe - I can not recreate exactly the same computer environment as yours to tell you at which setting it does start to misbehave. These are PERSONAL computers - and each is set differently over time.
 
I only wrote (n+1) times you can not ABX DSD vs PCM in Foobar2000 - because it needs to be converted to PCM in order to be possible to perform ABX. Besides that, it produces soft click or noise whenever going from DSD to PCM - alarming the listener at least that switching between these two modes is changing place. I hope this limitation will be overcome in reasonable future.
 
And I most definitely can not furnish each and every listener with the modified Korg MR-1000, so far the best sounding DSD capable machine. It can not be used as DAC with a computer, it is not possible to select a DSD or PCM file change  faster than in about 15 seconds (menu and all that jazz ) , etc, etc. - therefore extremely tough to perform an ABX with it.  All I know  most of your jaws would be on the floor after actually hearing what it can do - but no, I can not squeeze it and its sound in the internet for everyone to hear. I wish outboard DSD DACs would come closer to this sound - but they do not. 
 
Real life limitation - and not my unwillingness to play by the book. 

 

[analogsurviver]

  It doesn't, though.

It is much like in the last days of the piston driven airplanes - one can argue whether it is 810 km/h at such and such altitude and such and such wind - or it is 812.58 km/ h by another plane with yet 1000 HP more under the hood under slightly different conditions - to everyone it was clear the future are jet propelled aircraft.
 
CD, as well as piston driven aircraft, has finite limitations. And it is response to a hair above 20 kHz for CD and speed approx 800 km/h ( do not want to google the exact figure, but that can be disputed anyway ) for a piston driven aircraft in level flight.
 
None of the above is - enough. Except it has been accepted in airplanes 70 years ago and will take some more time before it is accepted for audio. 
 
As simple as that. Of course, there is an untold group of people who would go to any length to prevent it from happening - mainly because of losing market share. And the requirement to upgrade the gear. Why exactly are those people the very same who declare CD obsolete technology when it comes to playing CD with a CD player?
And refuse to believe that from the pressed CD a better copy of CD-R can be made? But when it comes to the fact that it is not so easy and convenient to do it, they do not want to hear it - at all ?
 
I certainly agree that so-called-Hi-Rez-downloads  should be perfectly transparent where do they come from and how they were made. It is not fair to charge premium for something that can be traced back to a 44.1/16 redbook copy - and stretched to whatever higher.
 
But genuine hirez should be priced premium - within reason. Today, it is technically possible to sell the exact bit perfect copy of the master.  What is usually done is to make a one step down removed from the master conversion available to the public for purchase - ad that still, if done correctly, will run rings around redbook.
 
Slowly, an ABX comparator that does allow for comparison of PCM and DSD - both native - will become hopefully available. In the same manner, more and more new, genuine hirez recordings, both in DSD and PCM/DXD, will become available. The least problem will be DSD capable DACs and amplifiers - they are here, and here to stay.
 
And then there will be no longer possible to fish in the murky waters with "perfect sound forever". Much the same, original mono LPs of Beatles and contemporary recorded music will still sound the best on the vinyl. And those few CDs fortunate enough to be recorded on equipment already devoid of teething troubles but still old enough to escape loudness wars will probably continue sounding their best in redbook.
 
And me personally would still listen to 100 or so years record or its restauration - if interested in music on that recording. 
 
Things evolve - needs not to go to infinity, but stopping it all at redbook is stopping it one bridge too soon.

 

[Head Injury]

  None of the above is - enough. Except it has been accepted in airplanes 70 years ago and will take some more time before it is accepted for audio.
 
...
 
As simple as that. Of course, there is an untold group of people who would go to any length to prevent it from happening - mainly because of losing market share. And the requirement to upgrade the gear. Why exactly are those people the very same who declare CD obsolete technology when it comes to playing CD with a CD player?
And refuse to believe that from the pressed CD a better copy of CD-R can be made? But when it comes to the fact that it is not so easy and convenient to do it, they do not want to hear it - at all ?
 
...
 
But genuine hirez should be priced premium - within reason. Today, it is technically possible to sell the exact bit perfect copy of the master.  What is usually done is to make a one step down removed from the master conversion available to the public for purchase - ad that still, if done correctly, will run rings around redbook.
 
...
 
Slowly, an ABX comparator that does allow for comparison of PCM and DSD - both native - will become hopefully available. In the same manner, more and more new, genuine hirez recordings, both in DSD and PCM/DXD, will become available. The least problem will be DSD capable DACs and amplifiers - they are here, and here to stay.

20 kHz is plenty. I can't hear above 18 kHz. I've tried and tested.
 
Not sure what you're talking about in the next section, but it sounds conspiratorial.
 
Why should hi-rez be priced premium? Is it an elitism thing?
 
You don't need an ABX comparator to do an ABX test, it just makes it easier. Heck, if you could prove you can hear anything above 16/44.1, even in PCM, people might take you more seriously.

 

[cel4145]

Sorry, no point arguing that computer has got to have enough juice to perform its task flawlessly.

Right. It's stating the obvious. And without proof of how much/what computer setup is minimally needed, it's not worth saying more than once.

Real life limitation - and not my unwillingness to play by the book. 

Sure. But you already stated your case that you think it sounds better the first couple of times you said it. Repeating/recasting your subjectivist arguments and unsubstantiated claims over and over again is not a good fit for this thread. Start your own thread if you want to keep discussing it.

Start your own thread.

 

[MacacoDoSom]

Hi analogsurviver why don't you start a new thread outside the Science Forum... something like 'WHY I LOVE CD MATS'
 
you talk as if you know anything... NO the LINN records

KUNIKO

kuniko plays reich

 
is not free and is not from 2013!
 
I bought it!
 
and those posts about computational power are just....

 

[cel4145]

Hi analogsurviver why don't you start a new thread outside the Science Forum... something like 'WHY I LOVE CD MATS'

And one for why DSD is better than Redbook CD.

 

[analogsurviver]

Just a honest question: Isn't it true that headphones impact sound much more than the DAC/AMP? I mean, If you use a 4000$ headphones and a 200$ dac/amp vs the contrary, The first will sound much better. So why do people still claim that they have the same importance? I don't think it is true

Yes. No good headphones or loudspeaker, no good sound.
 
In 1986, I designed electrostatic headphone system ( headphones + amplifier ), which, when heard by a friend who helped me with the design of the amp, beat then brand new Sennheiser Orpheus by a country mile. Senn was a 30.000 DEM (approx 15K$ BEFORE customs in US ) - and I have (censored) custom made electronic elements in that amp, never made available to anybody else. It is deadly ( voltage x current ) - many times over. Since late 1999 in storage - I willingly accepted decrease in SQ by adopting Stax Lambda Pro/SRM1MK2 amp - because I plan to roam this Earth for a while longer. It is not a marketable preposition - about an equivalent of the car that broke the sound barrier.
To simply push the envelope as high as it can possibly be done.
 
I mainly got the "job" (impossible to get working permit in Switzerland ), better call it an extended visit,  at Benz Micro (one of the best manufacturers of phono cartridges in the world) because of my reviews of preproduction samples - the source can not hide absolutely nowhere on these ES earspeakers. And I missed them while in Switzerland, where I had to make do with Stax Lambda Pro/SRM1MK2. BTW, those very same pair of Stax is still, although "battle bruised", going strong at Benz's - daily operation of at least 2 hours, 5/7  week, more than 25 years. Each and every cart gets final check, after measurements etc,  prior to packaging by - listening. 
 
But the opposite is equally true. You can still hear the difference between DSD and PCM, particularly the lowly redbook, although to a lesser extent, on Xiaomi Piston2 :
 http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/low-cost-high-value-25-xiaomi-piston-2
 
Although "nothing special" - they are seriously good - especially properly equalized ( $$$ ).
 
I am very much looking forward to auditioning the new HiFiMan HE-1000 at Munich High End show in May, although I am naturally interested in more products and services that will be there, the clincher to definiteely go there were the announced HE-1000. This thing has the potential to dethrone the electrostatics - but would like to hear it by myself to confirm.

 

[maverickronin]

  You can download , now for free, 
 http://www.korg.com/us/products/audio/audiogate3/ This soft will work in "lite load" and "high quality" modes - but high quality requires autechnication by connecting a Korg recorder or DAC. There IS one hell of a difference between the two versions - both in SQ and in how much will your computer "sweat".
 
There are settings in Audiogate for the format you want to listen DSD files in. From 192/24 all the way down to MP3 96 kbps - and everything in between. You can quickly find that some less capable computers will start to noise whenever too fast sampling will be selected - and things toughen up by the use of high quality mode.
Sometimes, a high quality mode and lower sampling is preferable to light load and 192 sampling. Audible on laptop speakers.

 
Your missing a few things here but I think the most important is that the FFT from that VST plugin is an analysis of the data on the computer and is independent of what kind of DAC you send it to or even if you send it to a DAC at all.  It is a measurement of the data in the file itself and is not a measurement of any signal that come out of the computer or anything connected to it.

 

[analogsurviver]

  20 kHz is plenty. I can't hear above 18 kHz. I've tried and tested.
 
Not sure what you're talking about in the next section, but it sounds conspiratorial.
 
Why should hi-rez be priced premium? Is it an elitism thing?
 
You don't need an ABX comparator to do an ABX test, it just makes it easier. Heck, if you could prove you can hear anything above 16/44.1, even in PCM, people might take you more seriously.

I can not hear above 14 kHz - sine wave. In my best days, I could hear just below 19 kHz - FM pilot tone etc never did bother me. But in those days, I could bring the operator of audiology test to tears - because I could have indicated each and every sliding potentiometer etc flaw - by hearing signals whenever there should be total silence, etc, etc. I am still good at it, but years have certainly taken their toll.
 
I wrote why hearing ability over 20>18>15>10 kHz is not required to hear the difference between DSD ( or heck, anything fast, analog record included ) and CD redbook. Catch is in the phase response (or whatever one might call it ) - limiting frequency response will limit the width and particularly the depth of the soundstage.
That is VERY audible - even with constant channel separation. And is the most objectionable for me in anything band limited. The most common of these band limited things in audio is - CD redbook. Hence dissatisfaction...
 
I have also written regarding headphones/loudspeakers that can do this well - on messed up headphones or speakers, it does not matter in the slightest. Once heard, hooked forever. The least expensive speakers I know that will do the trick are http://www.visaton.com/en/industrie/breitband/frs8_8.html - approx $25 or so per one, + of course the enclosure. Voigt Pipe http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/29321-cyburgs-needle-cyburgs-pipe-frs-8-a-2.html creates a full range speaker (that will not play loud in the bass, etc ) with imaging that is second to none.  NOT recommended to hear one well made DIY pair properly positioned in listening space with a true hirez recording - and the speaker does not go exactly stellar above 15 kHz or so either. NOT if you do cherish the idea the CD is enough for all times.
 
Consider yourself warned.
 
There are other "really full size" speakers that will also do. At a cost that is anything but inconsiderable. Like cabinets for Lowther drivers that will run you five figures - and the first is unfortunately not 1. There is some middle ground like Thiele co-axial driver, etc. It CAN be done - and you do not need to be a bat in order to enjoy it.
 
There are LOTS of headphones that exceed 20 kHz - although, as indicated, NOT unconditionally required to hear the difference between say, DSD128 and CD redbook.

 

[lamode]

  Hehe - try similar for MANY singers - at least half of which male - for whom I hope they do not feel love for me - males, that is. But they do care about me - because they like my recordings of their singing.
 
Unscientific - yes; less real because of that - no.

 
Unfortunately you have a track record of making up stories, like the one about measuring an orchestra at 113dB from 30m away using a smartphone app. (I'm still LOLing about that one)
And then there are the countless claims which contradict well established science without any proof whatsoever.
So no, your posts can't be taken seriously at all. If I correct your many false claims, it is not because I think I can change your mind, but because I want to help other newcomers to get the facts.

 

[lamode]

  It is much like in the last days of the piston driven airplanes - one can argue whether it is 810 km/h at such and such altitude and such and such wind - or it is 812.58 km/ h by another plane with yet 1000 HP more under the hood under slightly different conditions - to everyone it was clear the future are jet propelled aircraft.
 
CD, as well as piston driven aircraft, has finite limitations.

 
As does human hearing. All we need is a format which exceeds our ears' limits. There is no benefit to going any "faster" than that. In fact, it's a waste of download bandwidth, disk storage, processor load, etc.