[bigshot]

  I'm buffled when people describe their DAPs as warm, digital sounding, detailed, good imaging, etc. etc. Assuming that different DAPs are transparent within a reasonable margin of error, they should sound more or less the same. Right? So if I perceive my DAP as "warm sounding", what am I picking on? The difference in frequency response?

RRod nailed it. It's the interaction of the headphones, not the DAC itself.

 

[bigshot]

  By the definition of "all amps sound the same" camp there should be zero difference in sound between the two - but there is.

 
All amps that are designed and built to perform to spec should sound the same. If yours doesn't, send it back for a refund. It's defective.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
All amps that are designed and built to perform to spec should sound the same. If yours doesn't, send it back for a refund. It's defective.

That is the same as saying Ford Mustang year XYZT will be performing the same as Ford Mustang year XYZT hot rodded by some famous and well established and proven to be good and true car maniac ( Chip Foose comes to mind from the times I still watched TV ).
 
Put these two side by side and say to the car crowd they drive the same ... Good luck with that one ! 

 

[Mr Rick]

  That is the same as saying Ford Mustang year XYZT will be performing the same as Ford Mustang year XYZT hot rodded by some famous and well established and proven to be good and true car maniac ( Chip Foose comes to mind from the times I still watched TV ).
 
Put these two side by side and say to the car crowd they drive the same ... Good luck with that one ! 

That analogy makes no sense at all.

 

[bigshot]

No sense.

 

[sonitus mirus]

  That is the same as saying Ford Mustang year XYZT will be performing the same as Ford Mustang year XYZT hot rodded by some famous and well established and proven to be good and true car maniac ( Chip Foose comes to mind from the times I still watched TV ).
 
Put these two side by side and say to the car crowd they drive the same ... Good luck with that one ! 

 
The cars should drive the same.
 
If a custom car was painted Meridian blue and then marketed as being superior to the black Mustangs by having a professional driver get a faster lap time, then we would be on point.  
 
We are saying that these Mustangs should all have the same performance, and the paint job does not matter.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
The cars should drive the same.
 
If a custom car was painted Meridian blue and then marketed as being superior to the black Mustangs by having a professional driver get a faster lap time, then we would be on point.  
 
We are saying that these Mustangs should all have the same performance, and the paint job does not matter.

Paint DOES matter.
 
That's why manufacturer of racing bicycles Ridley is using paint that has the surface similar to that of a golf ball - yielding better dynamics. Measured in wind tunnel.
 
By how much ? Enough for the Greg Lemmond to finish second instead of winning Tour de France in 1989 by the slightest margin in history - 8 seconds - over Laurent Fignon - IF Fignon could *somehow* use the paint not invented yet for two decades or so.
 
Still on serious note - ever seen what "Mustang" looks like after being hot rodded by Chip Foose ? Ever seen what engines get mounted ? It would look like stock Mustang is standing still...

 

[Rajikaru]

  .
 
Still on serious note - ever seen what "Mustang" looks like after being hot rodded by Chip Foose ? Ever seen what engines get mounted ? It would look like stock Mustang is standing still...

 
I love car analogies, except, of course, when I don't agree with the point they're making. 

If we were to compare amps with cars, it would be like buying a $10K Toyota Yaris and a $2.2M Bugatti Veyron, but they both took exactly the same time to reach a destination since they start and stop at exactly the same time.
 
A song doesn't really go any faster even if you have a $10K exotic amp. 

If it's ride quality/comfort you're looking for, a Mustang (of all things) with a stiff suspension is not  the car you want. 
 
(And if I needed to take family/luggage/groceries with me on the trip, the Yaris beats the Veyron hands down.)

 

[Greenears]

If you recorded sound out of the headphone jack of a few competent DAPs, you'd probably find little difference once you aligned and volume matched the files. The concern is interaction of the DAP with specific headphones due to impedance and power issues.

No difference if you ABX it and they are not defective. Unless they intentionally add some EQ or effect to give them a certain sound. Which they can do easily. Even the DAC chip has an interface for proprietary filter.

 

[Greenears]

PS ABX test requires volume match for the uninitiated.

 

[Savant]

You will have to listen a lot more to a lot more gear. 

It is puzzling that amplifiers that by all logic 0.0...X % and 0.0X dB and comparable power can subjectively sound cold or warm . The amps that invariably got "cold" from me were Spectral designs - and it was opinion of every friend that ever got the chance to listen to it.  Just as if not more detailed is amplification from Swiss Physics - which you could most easily equate with the cozy warmness of a vintage fireplace. 

By the definition of "all amps sound the same" camp there should be zero difference in sound between the two - but there is. And under no circumstances it can be pinned down to a SINGLE parameter - another thing that bothers me with "science". Always trying to boil down things to a single factor. I get it is easier to monitor etc - but it is seldom applicable in practice. Better performance in one parameter usually means worse in another - and it is balancing with many balls with the prime task of not letting down even one - despite other X not travelling in so high circles or whatever if one was let to fall to the floor.

I have spent some two years in order to make my amp for ES headphones really sounding good. If you asked practically all electronic engineers to look at the schematics, they would say NO difference.

You should have seen the faces of VERY FEW selected friends ( the amp is lethal - no joke, this had to be well understood before they were allowed to come anywhere near ) at the beginning and the final stages of the project. From   or meh - all the way to  . 

I absolutely agree with your observations. I had my share of different Amps and Preamps, and a good assortment of Sources, both Digital and Analog, over many years, and I have always found significant differences between just about all of them. I consider myself a moderate Audio Objectivist, but I never cease to be baffled by the persisting failure by many Hardcore Objectivists on recognising these - to me- rather obvious and consistent differences.

Incidentally, what amplification for ES's have you modified?

Best.

 

[analogsurviver]

   
All amps that are designed and built to perform to spec should sound the same. If yours doesn't, send it back for a refund. It's defective.

Analogsurviver the designer does not please the ears of analogsurviver the listener, then analogsurviver the designer tries each and every possible way to ameliorate
the situation, with analogsurviver the listener appreciating the efforts but commenting "better but not quite there yet", which has a consequence of analogsurviver the designer scratching his head even more and coming up with a yet better solution - and so forth for about two years. Until analogsurviver the listener is finally reasonably happy - beyond shadow of the doubt..
 
Then, according to bighot,  analogsurviver finally reasonably happy listener should send the amp back for refund to analogsurviver the designer - because the amps ConditionDay1 and ConditionDay7XY do not sound the same and are thus both defective.
 
I am in awe with your logic !

 

[analogsurviver]

I absolutely agree with your observations. I had my share of different Amps and Preamps, and a good assortment of Sources, both Digital and Analog, over many years, and I have always found significant differences between just about all of them. I consider myself a moderate Audio Objectivist, but I never cease to be baffled by the persisting failure by many Hardcore Objectivists on recognising these - to me- rather obvious and consistent differences.

Incidentally, what amplification for ES's have you modified?

Best.

It is pretty much exactly as you have observed.
 
It was not a modification of any commercially available product, it was the fruit of experience gained in building DIY ESL amps by Heymeyer and Sanders ( published originally in the Audio Amateur, reprinted by The Speaker Builder ) and a design by the developer (whose name I keep forgetting, but respect very much )  of otherwise much more known RKV Audio Valve amps, published as DIY  in the mid 80s in Germany.
 
And then went until "enough" was reached - going as far as custom SMD resistors - laser trimmed to 0.03 % and power rating of 25 W (!) - each...

 

[Savant]

It is pretty much exactly as you have observed.

It was not a modification of any commercially available product, it was the fruit of experience gained in building DIY ESL amps by Heymeyer and Sanders ( published originally in the Audio Amateur, reprinted by The Speaker Builder ) and a design by the developer (whose name I keep forgetting, but respect very much )  of otherwise much more known RKV Audio Valve amps, published as DIY  in the mid 80s in Germany.

And then went until "enough" was reached - going as far as custom SMD resistors - laser trimmed to 0.03 % and power rating of 25 W (!) - each...

Thank you for the Info. Very interesting...

 

[bfreedma]

  
All amps that are designed and built to perform to spec should sound the same. If yours doesn't, send it back for a refund. It's defective.

That is the same as saying Ford Mustang year XYZT will be performing the same as Ford Mustang year XYZT hot rodded by some famous and well established and proven to be good and true car maniac ( Chip Foose comes to mind from the times I still watched TV ).
 
Put these two side by side and say to the car crowd they drive the same ... Good luck with that one ! 

An inappropriate "comparative" car analogy? I think we're close to the end of this discussion....