Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jan 22, 2015 at 10:02 AM Post #3,841 of 17,336
I can't imagine having to interact with some of the egos in music, especially trying to convince them that imperfection should be documented for all of history. I was watching the documentary on Bernstein's own recording of West Side Story, and the whole session seemed like a gigantic boiler room of tension.
 
As far as DSD for recording, I still don't see how this is beneficial over recording in PCM and not doing any mastering. That is, the "not mastering" part seems like it should be independent of the sampling framework.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 10:18 AM Post #3,842 of 17,336
As regards DSD : SACD is DSD64, and it was WRONG to be allowed out in the open. The first DSD that is "useful" is DSD128 - and by the time DSD512 is reached, there should be low enough distortion, high enough signal to noise ratio INCLUDING out of audio band noise, etc, etc. - but economic reality says I will have to satisfy myself with DSD128 for some time to come.


Agreed on SACD/DSD64. It is a joke, really....
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 10:46 AM Post #3,843 of 17,336
  I can't imagine having to interact with some of the egos in music, especially trying to convince them that imperfection should be documented for all of history. I was watching the documentary on Bernstein's own recording of West Side Story, and the whole session seemed like a gigantic boiler room of tension.
 
As far as DSD for recording, I still don't see how this is beneficial over recording in PCM and not doing any mastering. That is, the "not mastering" part seems like it should be independent of the sampling framework.

You mean this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjxWKL6jhC4  
I might decide to watch it and see where on the Ego "Richter's Scale" was Bernie compared to people I have worked with 
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And then there are guys who would on recording insist on doing ABX 
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 - one can hardly ask for a break to change CD/battery/hard disk/whatever - AFTER having to record 10+minute tirade(s) on all that went wrong in the last take(s) !
 
DSD has the advantage of being more analog. The prime difference being the fact that any ringing/overshoot/whatever when reproducing square wave affects solely leading edge of the square wave - and not the trailing edge as well, which is always symmetrically affected in PCM. By the time DSD512 is reached, filtering is no longer required, there is " enough" and "low enough" in any category imaginable - bringing a VERY accurate representation of the actual incoming signal. Penalty is in storage and computer performance > price...
 
True, the "not mastering" is independant of the sampling framework. 
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 10:54 AM Post #3,844 of 17,336
If I understand correctly, only a live recording to DSD will have any audible differences from PCM.  The only way to hear any of these audible differences is to play these DSD recordings directly through a DSD capable device.  Any conversion from DSD to PCM will create an inferior copy that is no longer lossless with regards to the original, making it very difficult and impractical to ABX.
 
Can any of the millions of songs that have already been recorded benefit from this DSD creation process?  I'm guessing the answer is most definitely no.  "Dark Side of the Moon" isn't going to sound any better on DSD512 compared to AAC 256 or any other audibly transparent version from the same master.  It doesn't seem possible to improve upon the content that has already been recorded.  We are talking about a very limited library of music at this point, unless I am way off.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 11:20 AM Post #3,845 of 17,336
  If I understand correctly, only a live recording to DSD will have any audible differences from PCM.  The only way to hear any of these audible differences is to play these DSD recordings directly through a DSD capable device.  Any conversion from DSD to PCM will create an inferior copy that is no longer lossless with regards to the original, making it very difficult and impractical to ABX.
 
Can any of the millions of songs that have already been recorded benefit from this DSD creation process?  I'm guessing the answer is most definitely no.  "Dark Side of the Moon" isn't going to sound any better on DSD512 compared to AAC 256 or any other audibly transparent version from the same master.  It doesn't seem possible to improve upon the content that has already been recorded.  We are talking about a very limited library of music at this point, unless I am way off.

You are correct on all counts. In principle.
 
There is an IF. That IF is how clever/powerful are "upsample" software(s). This should be the way to improve the already recorded material. I have to test the "latest crop" of software(s) that allow for this - and see if they  actually
manage to output a square wave better than on the original recording. Reportedly, MP3s if converted to DSD256 and higher (on the fly or pre-converted) particularly gain in SQ - but please do not quote me on that just yet.
 
What I DO know : material recorded to DSD64 will sound MUCH better if converted to DSD128 - either for listening or conversion down to PCM. Benefit of doing so is approx 20 dB decrease of out of audio range noise - which is particularly bad with DSD64. 
 
I will record square wave to Korg DSD recorder(s) and then post a photo of upsamoled square wave using various softs. If these differ in the ability to play -100 dB 1 kHz sine wave with PCM - then "imagine" what might this square wave upsampling test bring about.
 
BUT I can not do anything before Monday - tomorrow recording of a concert, the day after recording for CD, day after that a friend that went to USA is returning to these quarters for the first time - in 27 years.  I *guess* he would like to have some proper food after all this time...- and there will be some adult beverages for sure.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 12:33 PM Post #3,846 of 17,336
Your response illustrates why no one is sensing any headway in the conversation. Because the next logical thing I would say is "symmetric ringing is only a problem if said ringing is audible", and then we get back into debates on ABX.
 
I will say that my main beef with DSD is simply that it requires a whole new paradigm for doing what we can already do audibly well. I have trivial access to all kinds of DACs that will decode up to 32/192 with no issues, but I would have to intentionally buy something to get DSD decoding on, say, my Linux box. And for what content? And for what audible benefit? For what *provable* audible benefit?
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 12:56 PM Post #3,847 of 17,336
I know what broken records sound like, that's for sure!
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 1:21 PM Post #3,848 of 17,336
  Your response illustrates why no one is sensing any headway in the conversation. Because the next logical thing I would say is "symmetric ringing is only a problem if said ringing is audible", and then we get back into debates on ABX.
 
I will say that my main beef with DSD is simply that it requires a whole new paradigm for doing what we can already do audibly well. I have trivial access to all kinds of DACs that will decode up to 32/192 with no issues, but I would have to intentionally buy something to get DSD decoding on, say, my Linux box. And for what content? And for what audible benefit? For what *provable* audible benefit?

 
Not to mention the DAW side of things.
Audacity has its limitations, but it's absolutely possible to make some good music with it, at 24/48, on a modern laptop.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 2:21 PM Post #3,849 of 17,336
  Your response illustrates why no one is sensing any headway in the conversation. Because the next logical thing I would say is "symmetric ringing is only a problem if said ringing is audible", and then we get back into debates on ABX.
 
I will say that my main beef with DSD is simply that it requires a whole new paradigm for doing what we can already do audibly well. I have trivial access to all kinds of DACs that will decode up to 32/192 with no issues, but I would have to intentionally buy something to get DSD decoding on, say, my Linux box. And for what content? And for what audible benefit? For what *provable* audible benefit?

I agree regarding the logic of audibility of said ringing.
 
However - and that is BIG however - I feel that eliminating a potentially audible problem altogether is better than debating whether it is audible or not. One unknown less is ALWAYS better than one more. In music heard live, there is NO filtering (except HF rolloff as a function of the distance ) vcausing any form of ringing - yet all known forms of recording introduce some. DXD and DSD come mighty close to the perfection, DSD is faster in reaction times.
 
I still find it hard how we - or pardon - I - can hear the difference in high end response beyond the frequency I can still reliably hear sine wave AND over headphones/speakers that roll off waaaay too early and have curtailed response in the treble to boot. It still comes trough , despite all the imperfections in between.
 
I was appalled to see the measurements of most headphones - even high end models - after being used to performance of phono cartridges. Loudspeakers are generally even worse, specially if the acoustics of the room is allowed to take its toll. 
 
I agree there is far more important to get better microphone(s) and headphones/speakers than worrying about DXD vs DSD. Yet it is now 60 years since the original Mercurys etc have been recorded - and STILL it is possible to get  out of the originally pressed vinyl records ever more by the use of a really good turntable. No one is going to do that with early digital recordings - because machines that read them now are so far better than the recordings themselves it really does not make much sense.
 
By recording now to DXD or DSD, we create libraries for the future. And DXD/DSD capable DACs can be had from approx $200 or so - to the sky is the limit. They are available NOW, not like phono gear that took at least three decades to sort of catch up with what was in the grooves since around 1955 - and did and does cost a small fortune and will/can never be "cheap".
 
I will post a few DSD128 DFF files - excerpts -  for which I have obtained permission - next week , time permitting.
So that you can have some true unprocessed DSD - only taken out of an entire concert, maybe there will be some fade in/out - end of story. Nothing else done to the original file.
 
"Provable" audible benefit. ? About the same thing as classic mechanical gear shifting and electronic gear shifting in racing bicycles. Yes, classics is lighter, yes, it is more reliable on the dark side of the Venus, it does not require getting new frame, is cheaper, can be adjusted by almost anyone, etc, etc - that is precisely why I do not want to go any near the new electronic shifting bikes. Because they say once tried, all of the above reservations evaporate in thin air, cost be damned...
With bikes, the only cost effective solution for getting electronic shifting is complete new bike - with DXD/DSD, it is only DXD/DSD capable DAC (and possibly better computer), software that can play DSD natively + storage . They also generally play regular PCM better than DACs only few years old.
 
For music in pure dsd: https://www.nativedsd.com/
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 2:52 PM Post #3,850 of 17,336
Eliminating inaudible noise is a waste of time. If you are breaking a sweat working to do that, you're taking time away from optimizing the things that *do* matter.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 2:53 PM Post #3,851 of 17,336
   
Not to mention the DAW side of things.
Audacity has its limitations, but it's absolutely possible to make some good music with it, at 24/48, on a modern laptop.

Yes, DAW is the sour grape. Costly and likely to remain so. 
 
TBH, I would seriously consider it only once DSD512 version will be available. It should not add that much more cost for the double present sampling rate.
 
I agree it is possible to use audacity to good effect with 24/48. But I STRONGLY disagree it is possible to MAKE music with DAWs.  As I have ever stressed, my recordings are mainly about acoustic music with as little processing as possible, preferrably zero - and would not be "making" music in a DAW in a sense of mixing various instruments/tracks into something new, thus creating music. It is a form of art for sure, but definitely not my thing or along my lines. I do respect people doing it, though.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 3:03 PM Post #3,852 of 17,336
  Yes, DAW is the sour grape. Costly and likely to remain so. 
 
TBH, I would seriously consider it only once DSD512 version will be available. It should not add that much more cost for the double present sampling rate.
 
I agree it is possible to use audacity to good effect with 24/48. But I STRONGLY disagree it is possible to MAKE music with DAWs.  As I have ever stressed, my recordings are mainly about acoustic music with as little processing as possible, preferrably zero - and would not be "making" music in a DAW in a sense of mixing various instruments/tracks into something new, thus creating music. It is a form of art for sure, but definitely not my thing or along my lines. I do respect people doing it, though.

 
Your approach seems to mirror that of these guys.
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 3:08 PM Post #3,853 of 17,336
"Summary: These listening tests indicate that as a rule, no significant differences could be heard between DSD and high-resolution PCM (24-bit / 176.4 kHz) even with the best equipment, under optimal listening conditions, and with test subjects who had varied listening experience and various ways of focusing on what they hear. Consequently it could be proposed that neither of these systems has a scientific basis for claiming audible superiority over the other. This reality should put a halt to the disputation being carried on by the various PR departments concerned. "
 
Jan 22, 2015 at 3:14 PM Post #3,854 of 17,336
  Eliminating inaudible noise is a waste of time. If you are breaking a sweat working to do that, you're taking time away from optimizing the things that *do* matter.

Above is NOT my experience. At least not with vinyl records and players. On the contrary, it DOES matter very much how any likely cause of ringing, usually well above 20 kHz, can be tamed or eliminated altogether. I know and agree dragging the stylus along the groove does constantly excite any possible mechanical resonances - and that there is very little energy in actual sound waves above 20 kHz.
 
But not - zero.
 
If and when there will be digital recorder capable of FLAT ( 0 dB) at say 150 kHz and a gentle(r) rolloff above that (no brick wall filtering a la CD/Redbook) ( not available commercially yet, at least not to my knowledge ) and microphone to about the same frequency ( already exists, Sanken C 100k ), that would enable more research which instruments and from which angle(s) produce large(r) outputs above 20 kHz. With that capability and knowledge gained, things could perhaps get a little simplified and less costly - while still covering greater bandwidth than currently available equipment. 
 

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