[JamesHuntington]

If one collects any items, it's either healthy or not. Dying with regret after you lost your family because they couldn't handle your collection might be unhealthy. Having room and money to collect, like Jay Leno and his cars, is healthy to some and sick to others.
Back in the day I used to have so many tape cases in my truck that it caused tension with my girlfriend because she had to share space with them. She kicked them a few times but I needed them at hand.
I know a guy with a quoted 13000 albums. He likes the Dead, metal and classic rock. I ask him if he has any JJ Cale and he's never heard of him. I was astounded.
I find that I buy a lot of albums to maybe sell them at some time in the future. But I'm realistic and my music is usually a keeper for me or a keeper for future sale. Just those albums that are hard to find and someday somebody might pay good money for it. If we all collect then prices will go up. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Yahzi]

I've heard audiophiles claim that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

 

[Agharta]

I've heard audiophiles claim that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

Lend me your senses and I will let you know.

On a philosophical level, your universe is defined by your perception of it, so the most you can experience is at the point where your physical limitations end. I don't personally believe in a God or anything beyond what we can sense, since that's a logical tautology.

On a practical level, everyone has differently tuned physical capabilities and senses, therefore there are as many perceptions of reality as there are us. It is through the consensus of science and the development of devices to assist our measurement of physical sensation that we attempt a handshake of recognised commonality, in an attempt to unite our essential aloneness in time and space. Beer also works.

 

[Mezzo]

Wow, you seem intelligent and well spoken. Your input on something else would be appreciated. When comparing electronic gear, and hearing differences, there is a cause and effect. In sighted listening test, the effect could be a result of a different cause.
 
So if listening to music with two amps, the difference you hear between them may be not be a result of any inherent secret sauce, but in the way you compare the amplifiers. You would say it makes sense for comparisons to ensure complete parity to ensure a reliable conclusion that you are indeed hearing a difference in the electronics as opposed to your own biases agreeing with you?

 

[Agharta]

Wow, you seem intelligent and well spoken. Your input on something else would be appreciated. When comparing electronic gear, and hearing differences, there is a cause and effect. In sighted listening test, the effect could be a result of a different cause.

So if listening to music with two amps, the difference you hear between them may be not be a result of any inherent secret sauce, but in the way you compare the amplifiers. You would say it makes sense for comparisons to ensure complete parity to ensure a reliable conclusion that you are indeed hearing a difference in the electronics as opposed to your own biases agreeing with you?

Yes, of course. Confirmation bias and visual / tactile cues are expertly manipulated by audio manufacturers to exploit your emotional reasoning. This is hardly rocket science - if it didn't make a difference what something looked like, why bother making it look so fancy? Cables are the ultimate example of this.

The question really is whether knowing that you are being fooled leads to less misery in the long term or if ignorance really is bliss.

The answer lies in how you act as a result of knowledge.

Ultimately, once you ask the question and explain it, you change the neuro path ways of the listener, and happy ignorance is destroyed. You can't un-know something. Which is why the audio industry is so full of shiny shiny and pseudo-scientific nonsense words. Cold facts play havoc with the bottom line.

Imagine if high end reviewers started saying they liked the way something sounded because it cost shedloads and looked great and well they just had a great lunch and the sun is shining. How refreshing would that be and how long before chaos reigned?

 

[castleofargh]

  I've heard audiophiles claim that the most accurate and finely tuned measuring devices are our senses. Do you agree with this? If not, why not?

 
it's utterly false on every levels. tools can measure with more precision, more range, on frequencies we don't even ear. and the reason is simple, the tools are made for that very purpose.
the only time you will outperform a measurement tool is when the said tool is bad, or has a precision margin defined larger than the one of your own senses.
so if the question is "can a human with lot of practice, outperform a badly made tool giving results he doesn't know how to interpret?" then the answer is yes ^_^.
 
the only reason measurements don't help us so much is because those tool don't have bias, psycho acoustic, weird ears, and bad tastes for lack of real audio education. so they usually don't give the result I, as an individual, want or enjoy.

 

[upstateguy]

   
it's utterly false on every levels. tools can measure with more precision, more range, on frequencies we don't even ear. and the reason is simple, the tools are made for that very purpose.
the only time you will outperform a measurement tool is when the said tool is bad, or has a precision margin defined larger than the one of your own senses.
so if the question is "can a human with lot of practice, outperform a badly made tool giving results he doesn't know how to interpret?" then the answer is yes ^_^.
 
the only reason measurements don't help us so much is because those tool don't have bias, psycho acoustic, weird ears, and bad tastes for lack of real audio education. so they usually don't give the result I, as an individual, want or enjoy.

 
Never heard it expressed that way before. 

 
 
How would you define weird ears? 

 

[Agharta]

Anyone who enjoys metal.

 

[leogodoy]

"Imagine if high end reviewers started saying they liked the way something sounded because it cost shedloads"

They do exactly that sometimes, don't they? Or at least they leave that to the buyers, price is most of the times a relevant information to determine quality in posts by "audiophiles"

 

[Spyro]

Nothing to imagine...its a reality and it works twofold.
 
Your (or their) brain alreadly says "this is a better product because I am spending more."   Then if they bought it...and spent a ton of money...they will brainwash themselves to assure they like it (regardless) because they spent so much money on it.

 

[Agharta]

My point isn't to imagine that perception bias us real but rather that audio industry reviewers be honest about it.

 

[davidsh]

Interesting thread, am trying to establish my own opinion on the subject. It just seems so far out that so many people are deceived, I mean it's common sense on these forums that amps sound different! The list goes on...
 
So far my own opinion, or should I rather say conservative guess, is that well constructed DACs are indistinguishable, so are cables and in some cases amps as well.

 

[Steve Eddy]

It just seems so far out that so many people are deceived, I mean it's common sense on these forums that amps sound different!

It doesn't seem so far out when you consider that all these people are, well, people. Human beings. We talk a lot about our ears ("Trust your ears!"), but neglect to consider that those ears are plugged into a highly subjective brain that relies on a surprising amount of interpretation when it comes to our perceptions. That's why I avoid using words like deceived, hallucinating, etc. We're simply being human. The only deception is the self-deception on the part of those who refuse to accept their own humanity. But vanity and ego can be quite powerful so there will always be people like that.

se

 

[elmoe]

  Interesting thread, am trying to establish my own opinion on the subject. It just seems so far out that so many people are deceived, I mean it's common sense on these forums that amps sound different! The list goes on...
 
So far my own opinion, or should I rather say conservative guess, is that well constructed DACs are indistinguishable, so are cables and in some cases amps as well.

 
You've owned Fiio products you've since sold and bought different amp/dac. Is it your opinion that there has been no audible change?

 

[ab initio]

It just seems so far out that so many people are deceived, I mean it's common sense on these forums that amps sound different!

I hope all amps are dead silent so that i can hear the music coming from my headphones or speakers.

Otherwise, im taking that noisy amp back to get whatever component is whining (power transformer?) replaced.

Cheers