Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jul 11, 2019 at 6:22 PM Post #13,246 of 17,336
Thanks guys.

Yes, I'll make sure I don't just make this knee-jerk switch - I'll just be more skeptical in the future - and be aware of the strong effect of bias.

I have a question -

I've always wanted a Stax tube amplifier. I guess because I thought they would sound great with my lambdas.

https://staxheadphones.com/products/driver-unit-for-earspeakers-1

This one, for instance. Well, tubes doesn't make any sense... It looks like the distortion rating is pretty good - so it should sound identical to a solid state? And if it doesnt, it just sound plain worse, right? This is essentially the one upgrade I would be looking to make in the future, but it probably doesn't make too much sense.


Don’t be hard on yourself for believing the marketing of the gear manufacturers- they spend a lot of money on convincing potential customers of the “value” of their gear and I suspect a large percentage of us who frequent Sound Science (professionals excluded) bought into the hype early in our audio journeys. I know I did. Credit to you to be willing to take a step back and reevaluate.

Tube amps can be audibly different and while technically worse, sometimes I find a change up to be enjoyable. My tube amp probably gets less than 10% of my listening time but sometimes it’s a nice option, even if the placebo effect from glowing tubes is more prominent than the actual audible difference. As long as you don’t spend more than you can afford and can be honest with yourself and others about performance/differences/curing baldness, I’m a believer in buying things that you want - this is, for most of us, a hobby. As others have mentioned, different headphones can have fairly significant measurable and audible differences. While a lot can be addresses by EQ, personally, I like having a fairly neutral pair of headphones for the majority of my listening and a pair with more bass for when the mood strikes.

IMO/YMMV
 
Jul 11, 2019 at 6:33 PM Post #13,247 of 17,336
Well the price is ridiculous, but if you have the money handy, there are worse things to spend it on I suppose. I would bet that it sounds just as good as a decent solid state amp. The advantage would be that it is specifically designed for your headphones that have a unique set of impedance requirements. I'm sure you could find a solid state amp to do the job just as well for much less money, but it wouldn't have the pretty glowing tube. I just hung Christmas lights over my amp to get that effect.

I like how they labelled the outputs PRO ONLY. It inspires confidence and weeds out the riff raff. Trouble is, I don't know any pros who really use headphones. There may be no one qualified enough to plug anything in to it.


It’s not an ideal use of terminology, but the labeling on the amp refers to the bias and pin connectors. Normal bias uses a six pin connector and a 230V bias
Pro bias uses a five pin connector and a 580V bias.
 
Jul 11, 2019 at 7:06 PM Post #13,248 of 17,336
Thank you very much @gregorio & @bigshot

Snip...

"I am a bit surprised that people who have had their eyes opened to the reality even bothers writing about gear anymore. DACs aren't interesting, amps aren't interesting, and once you've bought a decent headphone, why care about all the others?"

So...at some point you've owned some fairly different headphones (Stax SR-007 mk1, Stax SR-L300, Fostex TH 900, JVC HPDX1000, Denon AH-D5000, Sennheiser HD650)

-- many/all of which are considered to be nice cans...albeit with different strengths & weaknesses. Going no further than the sound signatures of the SR-007 and the TH-900 highlights two different listening experiences.

TBH, there's nothing wrong with multiple sets of cans whether they're Basshead cans, Neutral/classical/acoustic/whateveryouwanttocallthem cans...or Rock (Grado), etc. I'll often put on my Fostex cans and listen to music that is very different than what I listen to on my Focals. On the other hand, I may just put on the HiFiMans or the Phillips; hit shuffle on the player and listen for hours to all sorts of genres -- depends on my mood.

Regardless, the key thing is...

(that you're)
"enjoying the music" :)
 
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Jul 11, 2019 at 8:42 PM Post #13,249 of 17,336
It’s not an ideal use of terminology, but the labeling on the amp refers to the bias and pin connectors. Normal bias uses a six pin connector and a 230V bias
Pro bias uses a five pin connector and a 580V bias.

What pro application uses a different bias for headphones? All I've ever seen in the studio is regular old cans with a regular quarter inch jack.
 
Jul 11, 2019 at 8:58 PM Post #13,250 of 17,336
What pro application uses a different bias for headphones? All I've ever seen in the studio is regular old cans with a regular quarter inch jack.

It’s just terminology describing the two different connectors and voltages used for electrostatic headphones. In the early 90s, Stax changed from the lower bias/plug type to the 580v 5 pin. It seems like the rest of the market adopted the 580v/5 pin. I have no idea why Stax called it “pro” (marketing?), but it doesn’t seem to be worth worrying about.
 
Jul 11, 2019 at 10:33 PM Post #13,251 of 17,336
Some companies sure do like to make things complicated. The best thing about my headphones is that I can plug them into anything I own and they sound great. I don't need five pin connectors, pro bias or even a headphone amp. I've never understood why people box themselves into a corner by buying non standard stuff that requires specific (read: proprietary/expensive) equipment to work properly.

I guess the sacrifices and irritations are part of the fun, but I'm afraid I'm not feelin' it.
 
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Jul 11, 2019 at 11:21 PM Post #13,252 of 17,336
The issues involved are slightly different when it comes to electrostatic headphones. Electrostatic headphones require an amplifier with very different capabilities than ordinary headphones or ordinary speakers - and one of those differences is a very high audio drive voltage delivered into a very high impedance but largely capacitive load. A typical electrostatic headphone drive amplifier can deliver an audio signal up to as much as 2000 Volts peak-to-peak into an almost pure capacitance.

Ultil recently, transistors designed to operate at those sorts of voltages, but relatively low power, with good reliability, were relatively scarce, and somewhat expensive. In those days, the common method for driving electrostatic headphones from a solid state amp was to use transformers to boost the output voltage. However, because tubes were designed to run at high voltage and low current, designing a tube amplifier that could drive electrostatic headphones directly, without transformers, wasn't especially difficult. So, from an engineering perspective, many of the factors that made tubes a bad match for driving regular dynamic speakers, made them a good match for driving electrostatic headphones. Therefore, there was actually a time when, even though solid state designs were easier to make and more practical for driving speakers, tubes still made sense for driving electrostatic headphones.

Electrostatic headphones are also capable of delivering very low levels of distortion. This means that they tend to make amplifier clipping more audibly noticeable than other types. As a result, it's not unreasonable to claim that there might be audible advantages to the more graceful overload characteristics of tubes.

Many of these reasons are much less of a factor than they were forty or fifty years ago. However, it would be fair to say that many engineers would still find it easier to design an amplifier capable of delivering the voltages necessary to drive electrostatic headphones safely and effectively using tubes instead of transistors. And, because tubes are a better match to the requirements, this also means that, in this particular application, they're more nearly cost effective as well. (The single most difficult to design, and most expensive, component in a tube amplifier intended to run speakers is the output transformer... and you don't need one to drive electrostatic headphones... )

Don’t be hard on yourself for believing the marketing of the gear manufacturers- they spend a lot of money on convincing potential customers of the “value” of their gear and I suspect a large percentage of us who frequent Sound Science (professionals excluded) bought into the hype early in our audio journeys. I know I did. Credit to you to be willing to take a step back and reevaluate.

Tube amps can be audibly different and while technically worse, sometimes I find a change up to be enjoyable. My tube amp probably gets less than 10% of my listening time but sometimes it’s a nice option, even if the placebo effect from glowing tubes is more prominent than the actual audible difference. As long as you don’t spend more than you can afford and can be honest with yourself and others about performance/differences/curing baldness, I’m a believer in buying things that you want - this is, for most of us, a hobby. As others have mentioned, different headphones can have fairly significant measurable and audible differences. While a lot can be addresses by EQ, personally, I like having a fairly neutral pair of headphones for the majority of my listening and a pair with more bass for when the mood strikes.

IMO/YMMV
 
Jul 11, 2019 at 11:41 PM Post #13,253 of 17,336
You're missing the historical perspective. The performance of electrostatic headphones is affected by the bias voltage they use. However, especially back in the early days, it was more difficult to produce higher bias voltages, and to design headphones that would work with them safely without failing. Early models of Stax headphones were designed to operate at the lower voltage - and amplifiers designed to work with them delivered that bias. Then, later, they started offering "professional" models that had better performance when used with a higher bias voltage. The "pro" models would work at either bias voltage; but older "non-pro" models could not be safely run at the higher voltage. However, at that point, there were many older non-pro models in use, and still being sold, and many older amplifiers that only offered the lower "non-pro" bias voltage.

Therefore, Stax worked out an interesting system, with that extra pin acting as a key. Because of the extra pin, "pro" headphones, which can safely be used at either bias voltage, can be plugged into amplifier outputs that provide either. However, "non-pro" headphones, which cannot safely be used at the higher voltage, cannot physically be plugged into amplifier outputs that deliver the higher bias voltage. (Note that, internally, the bias voltage an amplifier can deliver is limited by the maximum bias voltage it generates. Therefore, while some early or low end amplifiers offered only the lower bias voltage, most of the models that offer the higher bias voltage also offer a separate output with the lower one, and the additional cost of doing so is negligible.)

So... yes... from a marketing perspective...
They could offer "pro amplifiers" that could only be used with "pro headphone models"....
And "all purpose amplifiers" that had an output connector for "pro models" and another output connector for "consumer models"....
(And both could be targeted at different markets for about the same price.)

However, from a purely practical perspective....
Using the connectors to ensure that headphones only rated for 300V bias wouldn't accidentally be plugged into 600V circuits was still a good idea.

It’s just terminology describing the two different connectors and voltages used for electrostatic headphones. In the early 90s, Stax changed from the lower bias/plug type to the 580v 5 pin. It seems like the rest of the market adopted the 580v/5 pin. I have no idea why Stax called it “pro” (marketing?), but it doesn’t seem to be worth worrying about.
 
Jul 11, 2019 at 11:47 PM Post #13,254 of 17,336
There is no such thing as a "pro headphone". Professional equipment is for use in studios and is designed for specific purposes. It doesn't mean that it sounds better. It means that it is more flexible in a studio setting. High end headphones don't have any use in a studio setting. The word "pro" is abused by audio salesmen.

This sounds like the old B&O turntables with the strangely shaped headshell that only accepted B&O cartridges (which were overpriced and not really as good as the competition in that price range). Those turntables were only desirable because they were curate's eggs. Not because they were better. Now they can't sell them for a buck at the salvation army, because the cartridges aren't being made by B&O any more and NOS ones are hideously expensive. Stuff like that makes me mad. It's anti-consumer. Lousy design masquerading as cutting edge design.
 
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Jul 12, 2019 at 12:02 AM Post #13,255 of 17,336
You're missing the historical perspective. The performance of electrostatic headphones is affected by the bias voltage they use. However, especially back in the early days, it was more difficult to produce higher bias voltages, and to design headphones that would work with them safely without failing. Early models of Stax headphones were designed to operate at the lower voltage - and amplifiers designed to work with them delivered that bias. Then, later, they started offering "professional" models that had better performance when used with a higher bias voltage. The "pro" models would work at either bias voltage; but older "non-pro" models could not be safely run at the higher voltage. However, at that point, there were many older non-pro models in use, and still being sold, and many older amplifiers that only offered the lower "non-pro" bias voltage.

Therefore, Stax worked out an interesting system, with that extra pin acting as a key. Because of the extra pin, "pro" headphones, which can safely be used at either bias voltage, can be plugged into amplifier outputs that provide either. However, "non-pro" headphones, which cannot safely be used at the higher voltage, cannot physically be plugged into amplifier outputs that deliver the higher bias voltage. (Note that, internally, the bias voltage an amplifier can deliver is limited by the maximum bias voltage it generates. Therefore, while some early or low end amplifiers offered only the lower bias voltage, most of the models that offer the higher bias voltage also offer a separate output with the lower one, and the additional cost of doing so is negligible.)

So... yes... from a marketing perspective...
They could offer "pro amplifiers" that could only be used with "pro headphone models"....
And "all purpose amplifiers" that had an output connector for "pro models" and another output connector for "consumer models"....
(And both could be targeted at different markets for about the same price.)

However, from a purely practical perspective....
Using the connectors to ensure that headphones only rated for 300V bias wouldn't accidentally be plugged into 600V circuits was still a good idea.


That is the history, but the question was whether the “pro” nomenclature was representative of actual professional use or marketing. I don’t think Stax made serious inroads into the professional environment, so assume this was more of a marketing strategy.

I thought it was obvious that a six pin connector couldn’t be plugged into a 5 pin socket. Perhaps not.
 
Jul 12, 2019 at 1:19 AM Post #13,256 of 17,336
I thought it was obvious that a six pin connector couldn’t be plugged into a 5 pin socket. Perhaps not.

Story of my life really. I’m a six pin connector in a five pin socket world. :cry:
 
Jul 12, 2019 at 2:22 AM Post #13,257 of 17,336
Of course there is.... just like there are Stax Pro amplifiers.
(I didn't Photoshop the picture - the phony looking stencil of the word "Professional" really is put there on the actual amplifier by Stax.)
If you look around you, you will see a huge number of products with names that include the words "pro" or "industrial grade".
(Everything from sunglasses, to drain cleaner, to laundry detergent....)
It's also worth mentioning that real pro gear doesn't necessarily perform well.
Often "being professional grade" has more to do with reliability, and how long a tool or item will last, rather than on its delivering the absolute best performance.

Electrostatic headphones are quite complicated, and both the headphones themselves, and the amplifier that goes with them, are somewhat prone to failure.
(I might be willing to risk them wearing out or breaking easily in return for the best possible fidelity; but poor reliability would be a fatal flaw in a real piece of pro gear.)

You also neglected to mention that the B&O turntables themselves were quite pricey.
And, no, those B&O turntables didn't play records any better than any other type (although they did have a vaguely plausable excuse for the benefits of the custom headshell) ...
However, a friend of mine who is an artist assures me that, in terms of "artistic appearance", they perform extremely well...
He's actually considering purchasing a vintage one - not because of how well it plays records, but because of how cool it looks.

My point, just to be clear, is that their products commanded such high prices for their looks, and not for their audio performance (or for the combination of the two).
(Anybody could make a turntable that worked well, and anybody could make one that looked cool, but B&O earned their premium price by offering both in a single unit.)
However, I fail to see that as being a tragedy, as long as most of the people who bought them more or less understood that they were paying a premium for "cool looks".

There is no such thing as a "pro headphone". Professional equipment is for use in studios and is designed for specific purposes. It doesn't mean that it sounds better. It means that it is more flexible in a studio setting. High end headphones don't have any use in a studio setting. The word "pro" is abused by audio salesmen.

This sounds like the old B&O turntables with the strangely shaped headshell that only accepted B&O cartridges (which were overpriced and not really as good as the competition in that price range). Those turntables were only desirable because they were curate's eggs. Not because they were better. Now they can't sell them for a buck at the salvation army, because the cartridges aren't being made by B&O any more and NOS ones are hideously expensive. Stuff like that makes me mad. It's anti-consumer. Lousy design masquerading as cutting edge design.
 

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Jul 12, 2019 at 6:10 AM Post #13,258 of 17,336
Of course there is.... just like there are Stax Pro amplifiers.
(I didn't Photoshop the picture - the phony looking stencil of the word "Professional" really is put there on the actual amplifier by Stax.)
If you look around you, you will see a huge number of products with names that include the words "pro" or "industrial grade".
(Everything from sunglasses, to drain cleaner, to laundry detergent....)
It's also worth mentioning that real pro gear doesn't necessarily perform well.
Often "being professional grade" has more to do with reliability, and how long a tool or item will last, rather than on its delivering the absolute best performance.

Electrostatic headphones are quite complicated, and both the headphones themselves, and the amplifier that goes with them, are somewhat prone to failure.
(I might be willing to risk them wearing out or breaking easily in return for the best possible fidelity; but poor reliability would be a fatal flaw in a real piece of pro gear.)

You also neglected to mention that the B&O turntables themselves were quite pricey.
And, no, those B&O turntables didn't play records any better than any other type (although they did have a vaguely plausable excuse for the benefits of the custom headshell) ...
However, a friend of mine who is an artist assures me that, in terms of "artistic appearance", they perform extremely well...
He's actually considering purchasing a vintage one - not because of how well it plays records, but because of how cool it looks.

My point, just to be clear, is that their products commanded such high prices for their looks, and not for their audio performance (or for the combination of the two).
(Anybody could make a turntable that worked well, and anybody could make one that looked cool, but B&O earned their premium price by offering both in a single unit.)
However, I fail to see that as being a tragedy, as long as most of the people who bought them more or less understood that they were paying a premium for "cool looks".


Add Monster Beats by Dre to this collection. Even I was tempted by their appearance, until I started reading the reviews, and measurements on sites like Inner Fidelity. Not to mention certain models require BATTERIES. No thanks!

A brother once got so mad at me when I broke his heart by telling him that I had at least two headphones that sounded better than his Beats, each for half the moolah.
 
Jul 12, 2019 at 7:01 AM Post #13,259 of 17,336
[1] This one, for instance. Well, tubes doesn't make any sense... It looks like the distortion rating is pretty good - so it should sound identical to a solid state?
[2] And if it doesnt, it just sound plain worse, right?
[2a] This is essentially the one upgrade I would be looking to make in the future, but it probably doesn't make too much sense.

1. It should sound identical to an SS amp, provided the SS amp has the signal output characteristics required by your headphones.

2. There's no way to answer that question unless you define what you mean by "worse". "Worse" (or "better") is not an audio property, it's a personal value judgement that is not correlated to any audio property. For example, let's say that we're talking about fidelity and a particular SS amp provides a level of fidelity that is audibly perfect/transparent. If you then use a tube amp instead, and there is an actual audible difference, then by definition the tube amp cannot be perfect/transparent, it must diverge in some way from perfect/transparent (introduce some sort of distortion) and therefore be lower fidelity. However, the type of distortion that tubes often introduce is based on even harmonics and is commonly referred to as "Euphonic" (distortion). "Euphonic" means "pleasing to the ears". Effectively what we have (or can have) with a tube amp is therefore both lower fidelity AND more "pleasing to the ears", so then the question becomes: Is "lower fidelity + more pleasing to the ears" worse (or better) than "higher fidelity + less pleasing to the ears"? For me personally the answer is "worse" because I want to hear the recording made by the artists/engineers with as little distortion as possible and if the artists/engineers had wanted the recording to be listened to with this type of added euphonic distortion then they would have added it to the recording. For someone else though, "more pleasing to the ears" is by definition "better", regardless of issues of fidelity or artistic intentions. So, the exact same signal (output by the tube amp) that I can rationally/correctly categorise as "worse" can be rationally/corrected categorised as "better" by someone else and therefore, "better" or "worse" cannot be related/correlated with the audio signal output by the tube amp, it's not an audio property (it's purely a perception/preference), it cannot be objectively measured, there can be no objective/correct answer to your question and therefore your question is flawed/wrong!
2a. It would make sense if: A. You can easily afford it and B. The difference is audible and C. "More pleasing to the ears" is better to you personally than higher fidelity. If "C" is false, then it wouldn't make sense because you wouldn't be upgrading, you would be downgrading. If "B" is false then it also wouldn't make sense because you wouldn't be upgrading, you would be equi-grading, spending more money for exactly the same performance.

[1] If you look around you, you will see a huge number of products with names that include the words "pro" or "industrial grade". (Everything from sunglasses, to drain cleaner, to laundry detergent....)
[2] It's also worth mentioning that real pro gear doesn't necessarily perform well.
[2a] Often "being professional grade" has more to do with reliability, and how long a tool or item will last, rather than on its delivering the absolute best performance.

1. Agreed, but obviously, just because the term "pro" is routinely abused by marketing departments across numerous product types doesn't make it acceptable.

2. That's not strictly true, real pro gear does necessarily have to perform well, although it entirely depends on how you define "well". There are times when "well" can mean "terrible". An example I've given before is that of Auratone speakers, which at one time were found almost ubiquitously in commercial recording studios. They were terrible (they sounded truly horrific, which led to them affectionately being nicknamed "horro-tones") however, they were a useful professional tool because if you could get a mix to sound half-decent on horrotones then it would generally sound at least half-decent on anything. In other words, they "performed well" at being terrible! You don't find them in commercial studios much any more because the company redesigned and improved them!
2a. Certainly professionals require/demand reliability but usually with pro gear you can have reliability without compromising performance. In those few cases where you can't have both, sometimes we sacrifice some performance for reliability and sometimes the other way around, depending on the circumstances.

The obvious implication that marketing depends on is: As professionals depend on their equipment/tools for a living, which are covered as a business expense, then professionals tend to choose/use better (and typically more expensive) equipment/tools than anyone else. Therefore, "professional" means better and necessarily more expensive. In the audiophile world, the "abuse" is commonly three-fold! Firstly, their "professional" gear is not chosen/used by many (or any) professionals, Secondly, it's not chosen by professionals because it either doesn't perform better or actually performs worse than other pro gear and Thirdly, it's commonly even more expensive than top quality real professional gear! In other words, in the consumer/audiophile world, "professional" is typically just a marketing lie to justify a higher price.

G
 
Jul 12, 2019 at 7:23 AM Post #13,260 of 17,336
Add Monster Beats by Dre to this collection. Even I was tempted by their appearance, until I started reading the reviews, and measurements on sites like Inner Fidelity. Not to mention certain models require BATTERIES. No thanks!

A brother once got so mad at me when I broke his heart by telling him that I had at least two headphones that sounded better than his Beats, each for half the moolah.

Well -- the times they are a changin'...one man's trash...etc. :wink:

Introducing Innerfidelity WOF member -- Beats Solo 2!!! :trophy: :medal: :headphones: :tada:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/time-rethink-beats-solo2-excellent

BTW, when Tyll retired to wander around the country in his pimped out step van, he actually took a set of Beats Solo 3 Wireless (with batteries) with him
 

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