Testing audiophile claims and myths
Jan 11, 2019 at 10:46 PM Post #12,031 of 17,336
Well no I haven't, how could you devise such a test? That is what my audiologist friend tells me based on large real world samples of different age groups and inferring what occurs with degradation based on what has been observed in clinics over a very long time - it would actually be more relevant to complex music than test tones. He is very unlikely to join this forum just to present clinical evidence to debate the issue with golden eared audiophiles.

Sure, a retired 50 yo F1 driver would have more driving skills than an 18 yo, but that is not the point - the F1 driver is no longer competitive on the major circuit due to age related decline, despite his experience over the 20-30 yo F1 drivers. No different to saying that a retired mastering engineer will still produce much better masters than just about anyone who has no or limited experience, whatever their age.

You also haven't provided any proper evidence that your hearing has not deteriorated over time - not on-line tests, but standardised clinical trials based on comparable samples for your age group. Do you really believe your hearing is as good now as it was when you were 18, or that your perception of sound has totally mitigated the loss?
 
Jan 11, 2019 at 10:53 PM Post #12,032 of 17,336
I think one quote I've heard sums it up best:
"Some audiophiles listen to music; other audiophiles listen to their equipment."

Some people seem able to "just hear the music and not the equipment" - while others can never seem to get past the gear.
And it's quite possible that some people really do just plain enjoy playing with the equipment more than they care about listening to the music.
(Do you have a collection of tracks that show off your equipment, or that make it easy to detect flaws in gear, even though you don't actually like the songs themselves? I do.)
There's also the issue of attention.
(Have you ever had a small crack in your windshield that, even though it's over in the corner, and not in your field of vision, but you just can't un-notice it once you know it's there?)

I personally think there is a happy middle ground.

Spending all your time, and money, trying to squeeze the last bit of performance out of your gear is usually a losing battle.
You'll never achieve perfection... and you'll never find a perfect recording anyway.
HOWEVER, just like when you have a little crack on your wibndshield, each of us have specific flaws that annoy us...
And, when you have one of those, you're never going to be able to concentrate fully on the music until you get rid of it.
(That's why I really dislike vinyl. I was always that way with surface ticks and pops on records. If I hear a single tick it "breaks the spell" and I can't focus on the music any more.)

However, I think an awful lot of people go way too far the other way.
It may be true that the world's greatest photographer can take a great picture - even with a crappy camera.
However, a really low end camera is going to limit their ability, and limit their possibilities.
For example, you can't make specific artistic adjustments to depth-of-field in your photos if your camera doesn't have a manual aperature control.
And, yes, every time I see some great photo someone took with their phone, I tend to think: "Gee, that's nice, but it would have been even better if they'd had a better camera".
Likewise, I don't want to enjoy the music I listen to in spite of terrible flaws in my system, I would prefer to enjoy it without the distraction of obvious sonic flaws.
It's possible that the world's greatest violinist can play really well even on a discount store violin, but I'll bet he plays even better when he plays on a decent violin.
And, sorry, I'll bet even the world's greatest trumpet player sounds like crap on a fifty-nine cent plastic kazoo.

The real trick is to find the line between "meaningful improvement" and "tilting at windomills".
And, yes, that line is going to be in very different places for each of us.
And, yes, you have to acknowledge that other people may have very different priorities than yours.

For me, if I want to hear details I never heard before or alter my perception of music I'll listen closely to a piece of music I really love three or four more times. I'll read the lyrics if it has lyrics. I'll try to organize it in my mind. What our minds do with music is pretty close to magic. The lyrics will take on a different twist. I'll notice the base line, or something in the drums, or what the clarinets and flutes are doing, or that great trumpet solo, and so on. With modern technology sometimes I'll say wait a minute, what was that, and go back several seconds three or four times, and then from then on when I hear that music I have a better idea what's going on.

Maximizing fidelity is very cool but rapidly diminishing returns on that additional dollar spent hit early and hard for me. I admire and respect people who do better at the hobby than I do and if I can use their experience to identify that an obvious improvement is there for the taking for me I do it in a heartbeat. I want to hear everything on the recording (within the limits of my hearing) in a pretty good and even balance and to have control over the end sound (e.g., EQ) for my preferences.

It is a luxury of life to have a nice hifi and it can be a true wonder and fulfilling hobby and even intellectually quite interesting and demanding and engaging if done well and smartly, but in my view it's not necessary to enjoy music to the utmost. Maybe that's the cruelest audiophile myth of all--that to really appreciate the music you need the nth degree in music reproduction so you can hear the music in all its glory. And the twist of the knife is manufacturers and salesmen misleading people so that they spend their money on the wrong things and in the wrong proportions and in preposterous amounts to maximize fidelity. Then they have veered way off course and wasted time and money and have been lied to and misled in pursuit of what is for me the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, which is to enjoy the music to the utmost.
 
Jan 12, 2019 at 9:27 AM Post #12,034 of 17,336
Sure, a retired 50 yo F1 driver would have more driving skills than an 18 yo, but that is not the point - the F1 driver is no longer competitive on the major circuit due to age related decline, despite his experience over the 20-30 yo F1 drivers. No different to saying that a retired mastering engineer will still produce much better masters than just about anyone who has no or limited experience, whatever their age.

You also haven't provided any proper evidence that your hearing has not deteriorated over time - not on-line tests, but standardised clinical trials based on comparable samples for your age group. Do you really believe your hearing is as good now as it was when you were 18, or that your perception of sound has totally mitigated the loss?

The question is what the net effect is of degradation of the ears versus compensation and learning by the brain. It's plausible that most 50-yos would be surprised at how much more detailed the perception of their former 18-yo selves is, but you haven't provided any real evidence of that.

On the other hand, take a look at slides 44, 56, and 123 here:

https://www.listeninc.com/wp/media/Perception_and_-Measurement_of_Headphones_Sean_Olive.pdf

Slide 44 shows that headphone preference doesn't vary much with age. Slide 56 similarly shows only a small variation with age in preference regarding bass and treble amounts, and the difference increases somewhat above age 56. Slide 123 states that "Listeners prefer models that are accurate and neutral across age, listening experience, or culture with some slight bass/treble variations to account for program/gender/training/hearing loss." Adding to this that I had no difficulty with multiple hearing tests, and don't have the impression that I perceive less detail in music than I did when I was 18, I'm not convinced that compensation by the brain isn't sufficient to make up for hearing loss for many people up to about age 50.

Regarding F1 drivers, there are surely many 50-yo former F1 drivers who are still better drivers than non-F1 pro drivers who are much younger. The main issue with F1 drivers aging isn't worsening perception, but rather diminishing stamina to handle dozens of consecutive laps where they repeatedly hit 4-5G, sometimes in hot weather. Back when the average fitness level of F1 drivers wasn't as high and G-forces were lower, there were winning F1 drivers in their 40s and over 50:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_driver_records#Oldest_winners
 
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Jan 12, 2019 at 10:14 AM Post #12,035 of 17,336
I haven't actually noticed a decline (so far) in my hearing ability in any of the aspects you mention, compared to when I was 18. And in fact, since I've been spending a lot of time playing around different headphones over the past year and trying to become better at evaluating them, I feel like my ability to perceive details and notice differences in headphones has increased significantly over the past year, to the extent that I feel like my auditory perception was somewhat primitive and untrained a year ago as compared to today. ... @gregorio, would love to get your thoughts on all of this.

OK. My thoughts are that the distinction between "hearing" and "listening" is incredibly important in discussions such as this. Hearing is effectively a physiological attribute and there can be no doubt, according to all the reliable evidence, that it significantly deteriorates with age. Every year there are countless tens of thousands of people who undertake an audiogram and there has been for several decades, so there's a wealth of evidence for deterioration and as far as I know, not a single case of someone's hearing improving (or not deteriorating) with age, unless of course it's due to recovery from some infection/condition which reduced hearing. Additionally, we have a wealth of evidence of actual physical deterioration of the ear structures themselves with age, so taken together, there can be little/no doubt. Listening though is entirely different, it's a skill, it can be taught, learned and developed, and indeed has been for many centuries. Listening skills do not affect one's hearing ability, they only affect our perception of our hearing, our ability to separate out and consciously identify details which we were always hearing but were unaware we were hearing. Therefore, assuming someone is actively training their listening skills, we have two conflicting processes at work: Hearing which is deteriorating with age and listening which is improving with age. However, we have to be careful not to conflate the two! Even if listening skill improved linearly over time with respect to hearing deterioration (which typically they don't), still the two would not just cancel each other out. It's entirely possible, even likely, that it might appear as if they do but in reality your listening skills are improving your perception/detection of details/differences BUT within a smaller audio band (both smaller freq band and smaller dynamic range band) due to hearing deterioration. As you loose your HF response, it's gone, and you cannot train your listening skills to discern something that's effectively no longer there.

I'm not aware of any long term scientific studies which support the above assertion, I'm just recounting the well known (and accepted) knowledge/experience of the audio engineering community, who, in lieu of published science, are best placed to judge, as we work with known freq range audio virtually every working day of our careers. I would therefore consider the above as somewhat reliable evidence, the best evidence we currently have and further supported by the fact that it's in agreement with what IS scientifically known/accepted but not necessarily definitive.

1. You do not need seriously expensive kit to hear differences between audio file's ..
[1a] However, if you where a sound engineer you would already know that having such gear is a huge advantage, in being able to discern such differences.
[1b] I hear them all the time when I listen to music via my Linn amp.
2. What is obvious from your responses however, is that I think you are almost certainly full of c**p.
2a. Just because you are a sound engineer doesn't mean you should be the only one who's opinion matters.

1. Good, so we are now in agreement that your first post was false! Which begs the question, why did you post it?
1a. This though is backwards! It's partly because my colleagues and I are sound engineers and are accustomed to some of the finest gear and listening environments which exist on the planet, that I know that such differences are NOT discernable! And, how would you know "that having such gear is a huge advantage in being able to discern such differences" if you've never even heard "such gear", let alone are accustomed to it?
1b. What are you saying, that your Linn amp is audibly superior to what multi-million dollar studios can afford? If so, that's obviously nonsense for two reasons: Firstly, the cost of even an extremely expensive amp is tiny compared to the overall cost of the studio and secondly, the amps used in world class studios operate perfectly, to levels beyond the limits of audibility. This leaves only two options: Either you're perceiving an audible difference where there is none OR you have a serious fault with your Linn amp (or other bit of kit in your chain).

2. What you think is irrelevant and although you apparently refuse to apply your self proclaimed intellect and therefore fail to realise it, all you're doing is making it blatantly obvious who is the one "full of c**p" here. So again, even in your own self interest (let alone everyone else's), you should desist!
2a. Please apply just a little bit of your supposed "intellect"! This is the "Sound Science" forum, NOT the "Sound Opinion" forum and therefore my opinion does not matter more than everyone else's, in fact it doesn't matter at all and neither does yours! Furthermore, I've already stated all this previously but you seem incapable of understanding it! The only time when my opinion *might* have some value here is if/when we are discussing art or some other area where there is little science, as in my response above to phronesis, but this isn't one of those times because there is a great deal of reliable evidence regarding the discernment of lossy codecs. So AGAIN, please stop with all this nonsense, stay on topic and actually try a reliable test yourself!!!

G
 
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Jan 12, 2019 at 10:32 AM Post #12,036 of 17,336
1b. What are you saying, that your Linn amp is audibly superior to what multi-million dollar studios can afford? If so, that's obviously nonsense for two reasons: Firstly, the cost of even an extremely expensive amp is tiny compared to the overall cost of the studio and secondly, the amps used in world class studios operate perfectly, to levels beyond the limits of audibility. This leaves only two options: Either you're perceiving an audible difference where there is none OR you have a serious fault with your Linn amp (or other bit of kit in your chain).

G

I'm not saying that my Linn amp is superior to what fancy studio's have. It's simple really..all I was saying was that when I use my Linn amp to listen to music either connected to my Marantz CD player or connected to my computer, I can hear a difference between the lossy file's and lossless one's. And I don't have to strain myself to hear it. I don't have to sit with my eyes closed and meditate, get in to a special "zone" and focus all my energy on hearing something that might be different, because it's already there, I can already hear it.
If you are familiar with the kind of equipment you say you are, and you can't hear differences, then there is something wrong with either your hearing or your equipment. Or both.
 
Jan 12, 2019 at 10:59 AM Post #12,038 of 17,336
SonyFan121,
I strongly suggest you take bigshot's test. I was convinced I heard a "night and day" difference between mp3 and FLAC. Then I got the ABX plugin for foobar2000 and tested myself. All that night-and-day difference disappeared, and I found myself essentially guessing. Expectation bias is a wonderfully powerful thing, and we're all subject to it.
 
Jan 12, 2019 at 11:04 AM Post #12,039 of 17,336
@gregorio What is the name of this company? what kind of speakers and amplifiers do they use? i'm curious to know :wink:

A lot of the folks here are a bit on the accomplished side and it would be a disservice to their employers to use them as fodder in an Internet argument.

You are going down the textbook path of someone who is checkmated in this conversation. I wish you could have the birds’ eye view. I’d suggest you take @bigshot ’s test and open your mind and let that adrenaline stop running. You’ve hit upon a place where there is a different level and kind of discourse as compared to what you are used to.
 
Jan 12, 2019 at 11:05 AM Post #12,040 of 17,336
SonyFan121,
I strongly suggest you take bigshot's test. I was convinced I heard a "night and day" difference between mp3 and FLAC. Then I got the ABX plugin for foobar2000 and tested myself. All that night-and-day difference disappeared, and I found myself essentially guessing. Expectation bias is a wonderfully powerful thing, and we're all subject to it.

I did PM him about it.
 
Jan 12, 2019 at 11:07 AM Post #12,041 of 17,336
A lot of the folks here are a bit on the accomplished side and it would be a disservice to their employers to use them as fodder in an Internet argument.

You are going down the textbook path of someone who is checkmated in this conversation. I wish you could have the birds’ eye view. I’d suggest you take @bigshot ’s test and open your mind and let that adrenaline stop running. You’ve hit upon a place where there is a different level and kind of discourse as compared to what you are used to.

I am no less accomplished. I am a musician.
 
Jan 12, 2019 at 11:12 AM Post #12,042 of 17,336
I am no less accomplished. I am a musician.

I wasn’t saying anything about your level of accomplishment. You might be great at your instruments, that’s not really relevant, though it might help you in @bigshot ’s test if you’ve good ears (musically). I was letting you know why you might not get an on-point response to your question and that you are writing to a pretty sharp bunch here.
 
Jan 12, 2019 at 12:06 PM Post #12,045 of 17,336
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