gregorio
Headphoneus Supremus
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- Feb 14, 2008
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2) By your claim, as soon as they found that those students couldn't hear above 18 kHz, they should have simply packed up and gone home.
3) So what? EXACTLY what is "a competent system"?
[3a] Can you show me the specific, certified and tested, frequency response that the term "competent system" guarantees it will meet or exceed?
[3b] If not, then that seems an awful lot like a matter of subjective opinion.
[3c] I also don't especially care what you believe an SACD mastering studio should be able to do either.
[3d] When we do real scientific experiments ...
[3e] I'll be happy to agree that your favorite SACD recording studio can deliver adequate performance - RIGHT AFTER YOU SHOW ME MEASUREMENTS OR CERTIFIED CALIBRATION CERTIFICATES SHOWING TAHT THEY CAN. Until then it's just your opinion.
5) I don't know what university you went to or taught at....
1) And, no, I'm not waiting for anything there. ..
2. Just so we're clear here: You're saying that "they should have simply packed up and gone home" because the only audible difference between SACD and CD occurs above 22kHz? Is that your claim?
3. A commercial SACD mastering facility is by definition a reference system and therefore certainly qualifies as "a competent system". In fact, it's doubtful that ANY consumers own systems that are more "competent". The same is broadly true of the other systems used, which in combination makes the likelihood that consumers/audiophiles will have systems more competent/capable and revealing of the differences extremely unlikely. Hence their claim: "There is always the remote possibility that a different system or more finely attuned pair of ears would reveal a difference. But we have gathered enough data, using sufficiently varied and capable systems and listeners, to state that the burden of proof has now shifted. Further claims that careful 16/44.1 encoding audibly degrades high resolution signals must be supported by properly controlled double-blind tests."
3a. There is no "specific, certified and tested, FR that guarantees a "competent system"", either in the professional recording community or in the scientific community. Therefore, according to you, ALL audibility tests are ALWAYS invalid and can never be scientific. Is this really what you're claiming and if so, why have you cited scientific audibility studies if you knew them to be invalid?
3b. In a sense that's true but of course all commercial mastering facilities are very carefully constructed, measured and adjusted to meet that consensus of "subjective opinion" as indeed are scientific listening laboratories.
3c. It's not just "what I believe a SACD mastering facility should be able to do", it's what the industry believes, the industry that creates ALL the SACDs that audiophiles are listening to and audiophile manufacturers are trying to reproduce. Again though, it's a double standard, you "don't especially care" what I, the industry or science believes but we should "especially care" about what you believe!
3d. Yes of course, your scientific experiments are "real scientific experiments" but no one else's are. Remind me, what "real scientific experiments" have you done in this regard?
3e. Firstly, we here do not have to make you "happy to agree", the facts do not depend on your personal happiness to agree with them and this is NOT the "What KeithEmo is Happy to Agree With" forum. Secondly, again there is no "certified calibration certificates", neither in the recording industry nor the scientific community. So you've invented a requirement that cannot be met, apparently to justify ignoring the evidence, even though you've already admitted it is "reasonably compelling evidence"? Thirdly, it is clearly an untruth that "until then it's just your [my] opinion", at the very least it's also the opinion of those who own and operate the mastering facility, the university listening lab, the audiophile system used in tests, the authors of the paper and those who peer reviewed it.
5. Indeed you don't ... but don't let that stop you from making up nonsense about it! In actual fact the university I taught at was a world leader in some scientific fields but this is all typical, childish audiophile nonsense: My ears are better than yours, my gear is better than yours, my university is better than yours and my dad is bigger than yours. If you've done "real scientific experiments" and "we were required to document our procesures and our results in detail", then show them to us, provide that "supported and properly controlled" evidence to counter the claims of Meyer and Moran and give us something (ANYTHING) to balance the BURDEN OF PROOF!!!
1. And again, that is a self-contradictory, double standard. Why don't/won't you apply that same rationale/logic in this case?
[1] It seems like it would be incredibly difficult to capture the disparate elements without some great technical expertise and artistic judgment.
[2] I’ll look for what seems to me to be a high quality recording of the genre. That would be a good case study in everything that goes into making commmercially recorded music presentable.
1. To be honest, that's true of just about all commercial music recordings. "Incredibly difficult" is a relative term though, a simple traditional rock band is comprised ENTIRELY of disparate elements and therefore also requires great technical expertise and artistic judgement. But, with 50 or so years of recording history and experience to draw on and that in practice it's considered relatively routine, this "incredibly difficult" feat is effectively a fairly basic expectation today. However, it comes as a considerable shock to most music engineering students that even after 3 years of full-time study they can only barely meet this fairly basic expectation. This particular sub/cross genre is even more difficult, for several reasons: Firstly, it can/should require cross disciple skills. Most music engineers specialise in either classical OR pop/rock (not commonly both) and often specialise in specific sub genres, so finding the required skill set would be "difficult". Secondly, it's not so much the fact that the elements are disparate which is the problem (as dealing with disparate elements is routine), it's the fact that there are so many of them. Trying to cram so much into a stereo sound-field is just asking for trouble (it would be an ideal candidate for a surround production IMHO though). However, that's less of a problem in this particular cross-genre case because the metal genre is largely defined by heavy compression and extreme amounts of distortion in the first place.
2. To be honest, it would be quite a poor case study. In practice it's difficult enough to work out "everything that goes into making" even most 70's/80's pop/rock, without significant inside info/knowledge. Even something like "Bohemian Rhapsody" (which could also be described as cross-genre, operatic/rock) is extremely difficult to work out in detail, even though the basic instrumentation is very simple. If you're looking for case studies, I'd advise you start with something other than this sub/cross genre.
G