Testing audiophile claims and myths
Sep 17, 2014 at 1:36 AM Post #3,106 of 17,588
  What is "accurate sound"? The sound that is either picked up by a set of mics during recording, the artificially generated sound from electronic musical instruments, or the sound resulting from the D to A conversion process?

 
For our purposes, we are only talking about playback of an already mastered recording. The sound that as precisely as possible reproduces the information encoded on the playback media (CD/Tape/Vinyl). There are too many other variables involved on the other end of that, to even begin to work backwards towards the performance (if there even was one). 
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 1:55 AM Post #3,107 of 17,588
Sep 17, 2014 at 4:47 AM Post #3,109 of 17,588
   
For our purposes, we are only talking about playback of an already mastered recording. The sound that as precisely as possible reproduces the information encoded on the playback media (CD/Tape/Vinyl). There are too many other variables involved on the other end of that, to even begin to work backwards towards the performance (if there even was one). 

That says it all.
 
I did say, countless time, I use live sound or sound picked by the microphones for reference. And 99+% of the time I record acoustic music without any electronic acoustical means used by the performers .
 
Then would come raw master on whatever is used for recording.
 
Only then would come mastered recording encoded on the playback media. 
 
It is precisely due to difficulties involved in the process to work backwards towards the performance why this debate is taking place at all. First, performance must have taken place.
 
In principle, one could sample the sound of the "best" singers, soloists, orchestras, conducted by the "best" conductor(s) - or better still, a single conductor in order to provide at least some artist consistency - and use that to "record" music the musicians used for sampling never played even individually, let alone together live on stage. And then master that to death until note by note perfection is achieved. Making the mastering engineer the true artist.
Removing, by default, the last vestige of live sound and imprinting the stamp of whatever technical means used to
make it possible at all.
 
Would the above, admittedly carried to the extreme, encoded to playback medium , still represent something you would accept as mastered recording fit to demonstrate whatever playback equipment ?
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 8:04 AM Post #3,110 of 17,588
  That says it all.
 
I did say, countless time, I use live sound or sound picked by the microphones for reference. And 99+% of the time I record acoustic music without any electronic acoustical means used by the performers .
 

 
Yes, and as the recording engineer/mastering engineer - presumably you work to capture that performance with as much accuracy to the original performance (or at least spirit of the performance) as possible.
 
I aim for my playback system to reproduce your efforts with as little of its own influence, as possible. Since I, as a CD purchaser was not there to compare against the performance, as a reference, I must trust that you are good what you do. And by the same token, not having the performance as a reference, I should not "tune" my system to compensate for deficiencies I can not accurately identify. Transparency is best, as a goal.
 
 
In principle, one could sample the sound of the "best" singers, soloists, orchestras, conducted by the "best" conductor(s) - or better still, a single conductor in order to provide at least some artist consistency - and use that to "record" music the musicians used for sampling never played even individually, let alone together live on stage. And then master that to death until note by note perfection is achieved. Making the mastering engineer the true artist.
Removing, by default, the last vestige of live sound and imprinting the stamp of whatever technical means used to
make it possible at all.
 
Would the above, admittedly carried to the extreme, encoded to playback medium , still represent something you would accept as mastered recording fit to demonstrate whatever playback equipment ?

 
I honestly do not know what you are asking here. It sounds like you are asking about an electronic artists composition (using sampled sounds), in which case, yes, I would want my playback to be as true to that artist's composition as possible (regardless of the instrument used) - but I don't know if that's what you mean. 
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 8:08 AM Post #3,111 of 17,588
  If it is THAT simple, how does one know when it is accurate? There is no way to tell.

 
If you wished you could record the audio in your listening room, and compare the waveforms to look for obvious peaks and deviations across the audible range. Obviously it could not be a perfect match, but major shifts in emphasis would be obvious.
 
I'm certain their are other ways. But that's an additional good argument for gear transparency. You don't know, so why are you selecting gear that does anything but reproduce the music transparently.
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 10:15 AM Post #3,112 of 17,588
I have been a high end speaker manufacturer/designer for 30 years, and an "audiophile" consumer as well.
 
Once, I designed a speaker with a partner. Each of us had the same set of prototype speakers, and we were swapping components in and out and comparing notes.
 
I remember calling my partner up one day and listening to the music playing in the background. I correctly identified the brand of capacitor he was using in the speakers, playing in the background over the phone, because of the sonic "signature".  It was immediately apparent. I know an amplifier designer who can pick out vinyl or digital over the phone, as I've talked to him a number of times with music playing in the background, and he was always right.
 
A lot of these ABX tests at the beginning of this article are terribly flawed.  Quick listening sessions of unfamiliar source material is the main problem. The ear, like other senses, can become desensitized very quickly (like when you grow used to the smell of your own house, for a slightly gross example).
 
That said, there really is a lot of bull(*&* in the high end audio industry. Grossly inflated prices is the number one problem. 
 
The other problem is the source material. Although I like popular music (read: rock, pop, etc.), it really doesn't place a lot of demands on the playback equipment. A good recording of popular music sounds pretty good on a wide range of equipment. The main differences being the dynamics (speaker size and ss amp power). Modern digital is pretty good for this too, most mid level gear sounding ok to my ears, with no reason to spend more.
 
Not so classical. Most modern classical recordings are mediocre at best.. Listening to newer recordings of Baroque music played back on digital gear through solid state into decent speakers is a dry, sterile and tortuous exercise. You need tubes to make this kind of music come alive. Proper recording of classical music is a lost art, as far as I can tell.
 
I have my own opinions on gear:
 
Analog is better than digital, it always has been. If you put money into analog (table, arm, cartridge, phono stage) and have good records, you will reap the benefits of your investment. Not so with digital.  The best digital front ends sound only marginally better than the mid level gear. The law of diminishing returns applies (I did say mid level, not entry level). OTOH, a good digital front end is a thousand times more practical. It goes without saying that the newer digital gear is better than gear even a year or two old, because of advances in chips.
 
With ss amplification, of equivalent power, there are difference, but some are "subtle". The best ss gear retrieves a tremendous amount of detail without sounding hard or clinical. Mid/entry level ss gear, however, (like Rotel, Yamaha Natural sound, etc) has come a long way, and sounds pretty good to me. Pretty good but not great. Differences between these products and the megabuck gear is mainly in low level detail, soundstage, and perceived "quickness and dynamics". Excessive hardness, brightness, and grain has been greatly diminished in this stuff. I find Class D amps  to be underwhelming. Too smoothed over in the mids and surprisingly, the bass isn't all that convincing, and the treble lacks "enthusiasm".
I haven't heard them all.
 
I now find that some Japanese consumer brands' higher end products  sound very good compared to just a decade ago, and much better compared to 3 decades ago.  Too bad for all those boutique brands out there, and all the hard working designers of 2-4k integrated amps over in Europe, and the mid level DAC designers too.  I can't hear an important difference in these products (European or botique integrated amps/dacs versus the best 2 channel stuff from, say, Yamaha).
 
Cables:  There is a difference in sound between cables, depending on what they are constructed from, and how well they are made (professionally terminated). There is a difference between connectors (high mass, low mass, surface area of contact).  Solid core, stranded, insulation (teflon or pvc), etc. These differences are "subtle" and not often apparent in quick a/b tests. OTOH,  outrageously priced cables are not worth the money. Common sense will tell you that. It's a scam, with very little basis in cost of materials or cost of manufacturing.
 
Speakers: Most competently designed speakers sound remarkably similar at first listen at low volume. Achieving a flat response without gross errors (cone breakup problems, deviations from flat frequency response) is very easy to do now with modern measuring equipment. The Andrew Jones designed Pioneer speakers you can purchase at Best Buy for $129 each are amazingly good (though with limited power handling, so get the sub). They equal speakers costing upwards of 1k a pair of just a decade ago. I have some myself.
In general, with speakers, you pay for dynamics, bass extension, and transparency, without errors of commission by the drivers or xo components. It's not a cheap proposition. Great speakers are just expensive to make (but not as expensive as the list prices indicate). 
 
Since the consumer demands slender cabinets, small vented woofers are everywhere, which is a shame.  Large, sealed woofers sound better.
 
Tubes: The only way to go for Classical and acoustic music, especially with digital sources. Unfortunately, they all sound different (the amps, the preamps and the tubes themselves), and different in unsubtle ways.No ss amplification captures the proper harmonic structure of stringed instruments. SS channels Santana, Norah Jones, Radiohead, pretty well, however.
 
My opinions.
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 10:37 AM Post #3,113 of 17,588
   
My opinions.

 
Welcome, Stumpy - to HeadFi, and to "Sound Science" - your opinions are welcome, though we must be clear that is what they are. Many of your assertions are supported by anecdote alone, and while fine in a general discussion, doesn't counter more objective (bias controlled, and measurement based) evidences in this sub-forum. 
 
At any rate, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I look forward to hearing more from you. 
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 12:06 PM Post #3,114 of 17,588
  If it is THAT simple, how does one know when it is accurate? There is no way to tell.

 
Put signal in one end. See if it's the same when it comes out the other side.
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 12:10 PM Post #3,115 of 17,588
  Yes, and as the recording engineer/mastering engineer - presumably you work to capture that performance with as much accuracy to the original performance (or at least spirit of the performance) as possible.

 
Actually, the engineer has a part in *creating* the performance. Recording and mixing isn't just pointing a camera and pushing the button. You craft the sound and create a balance that is better and more organized than real. When you're done, it sounds real. But  the reason it does is all the work you did to organize the sound.
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 12:31 PM Post #3,116 of 17,588
Bigshot - of course. For the sake of this argument though, it is the engineer's efforts we must evaluate, we cannot know his intent. 
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 12:35 PM Post #3,118 of 17,588
Huggtand - they make test stands essentially shaped like a human head, with mic's inside, ear canals, etc. That's the best way I know of, for headphones. But honestly measuring transducers (headphones or speakers) is it's own mess - which is why so many of us rely on measurements provided by people who already are equipped to do so well. You can check other components more easily though. 
 
Sep 17, 2014 at 12:47 PM Post #3,119 of 17,588
Thanks, not for me as a beginner then
tongue_smile.gif

 

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