Testing audiophile claims and myths

[2leftears]

I read this subforum every day but never post anything because of the hostile climate. You yourself, 71db and castle are interesting to read since you have more rhetorical strategies than just sarcasm.

This I can understand. I myself nearly abandoned this forum; when I first started to contribute I had no idea how carefully one needs to word one's thoughts here. Maybe that is a reflection of the scientific mindset of some of the contributors here. Essentially, if it can be misunderstood it likely will be or at least it will get challenged. It isn't meant to be a hostile environment but it can feel like that and I agree the language used at times is unbefitting to what this forum should be.

Personally I can't blame some of the hostility encountered here given the history of posts. It is clear that some post deliberate inflammatory content here just to cause a mess, knowing that a few regulars here will (justifiably) defend the scientific facts no matter what.

What would also help is once people realise they have been wrong, made a mistake or may have been misunderstood they acknowledge that, rather than dig deeper trenches and throw verbal grenades. I think castle does a good job of reminding us all.

 

[Blanchot]

I was using the term cool kids ironically. But it’s clear that certain people are jealous of Gregorio’s knowledge and position in this forum. Instead of respecting him and interacting as a peer, they try to attack him and negate his knowledge in a vain attempt to tear him down. This is an adolescent way of competing. It doesn’t matter what Gregorio does or says. His hyperbolic replies wouldn’t cause someone who was secure as a peer to reply in kind. Only people who are insecure would try to one up that.

A lot of people on Head Fi dearly want to be seen as an authority who people look up to, but haven’t a clue as to a way to actually earn that respect. So they attack the current “king of the hill”. It’s lame.

Or maybe his constant sarcasm is counterproductive? When you read him every day it get's tiring very fast. I have made it a habit to scan his posts for exclamation points; if there are lots of them, I just stop reading.

 

[bigshot]

When people claw at each other like hyper emotional 12 year old girls over whether or not power cords have a sound, a satirical view is a good way to stay out of the fray and maintain a smile. I don’t see why that should upset people. The sarcasm isn’t the silly part, the mad scramble to be king of sound science is. Thats genuinely funny. Lord of the flies. It’s not apt to change anytime soon, so if you don’t enjoy the show, there’s no reason you have to stick around for it.

I admit that there are aspects of this forum that I find interesting that have nothing to do with audio.

 

[BS5711]

My point was that I think bigshot is overestimating the attractiveness of this subforum. He talks about people wanting to be reckoned as a peer here, that they are longing to be a part of the group etc. but the constant flamewars and the abrasive personalities that populate this part of head-fi is anything but attractive.

I used to read here somewhat frequently but do so much less now because over time I have gotten tired of the same old repetitive routine where a subjectivist with zero desire to learn anything come in here to use a handful of guys as a punching bag just to argue about different aspects that have nothing to do with the technical science of audio but everything to do with the psychology of audio.

It amazes me that these guys bother continuing to deal with it at all let alone usually try and maintain a shred of politeness.

In any other part of head fi the behaviour of those that come looking for an argument would see posts deleted and warnings given but often such potentially confrontational posts actually get shifted here to move the argument to a place that administration seems to think nobody cares about.

The rest of head fi is by and large commercially driven where people parrot the usual nonsense about audio and what actually affects sound. To debate anything there is counterproductive so far as advertising income is concerned so is not allowed. Instead we get repetitive garbage about cables, amplifiers, DACs etc all making significant differences to sound and synergy between gear etc along with “reviews” and “comments” from what seems to be an ever growing number of people that are actually nothing but thinly veiled advertising, that also isn’t particularly attractive.

 

[XTF1]

I read this subforum every day but never post anything because of the hostile climate. You yourself, 71db and castle are interesting to read since you have more rhetorical strategies than just sarcasm.

I also read most of the Science subforum threads. My contributions are modest because I don’t have much scientific depth in the audio topic, but I’m curious and want to know more.

Now you are talking about the hostile climate…

Head-Fi has a rule (unwritten?) that one cannot talk about science anywhere but in this subforum—the mods will enforce the rule…
How hostile is that? Is the Science sub-forum nothing more but a ghetto for audio weirdos? So when an arrogant (my words) audiophile who trusts their ears 100% and is the self-proclaimed guardian of the absolute truth about audio posts here to confirm how right they are, what should they expect? That the science folks are going to cheer and applause in amazement?

OTOH, if one comes to this subforum to learn, ask questions about something they don’t know or don’t quite understand, the climate is very different…. I am personally amazed by the contributors readiness and willingness to address every post & every question, even if it means repeating the same basic science concepts over and over…

So, a big thanks to the science subforum for remaining hostile to all the audio BS out there.

 

[castleofargh]

 

[AudioMastermind]

My point was that I think bigshot is overestimating the attractiveness of this subforum. He talks about people wanting to be reckoned as a peer here, that they are longing to be a part of the group etc. but the constant flamewars and the abrasive personalities that populate this part of head-fi is anything but attractive.

I read this subforum every day but never post anything because of the hostile climate. You yourself, 71db and castle are interesting to read since you have more rhetorical strategies than just sarcasm.

I was surprised to learn that the Sound Science subforum on head-fi is one of the most fair and intellectually curious places on the internet for audio science discussion. I don't mind people being hostile towards me, but no one has been so far in the sound science subforum.

 

[bigshot]

No one comes to a forum for the forum. They come for the posters. The dedicated band of regulars are what make sound science what it is, and among us all, we have a really broad based brain trust. Even if we seem to always get dragged back to infantile audiophile nonsense by invaders, we still get across some interesting scientific factoids here and there. There’s plenty of science to make following the forum worthwhile.

Along with this we get a parade of crazy from people with fascinatingly squirrely thought processes. While our regulars are the acrobats and lion tamers, the audiophool invaders are the clowns in this circus. They prove the Dunning-Kruger theory every day while they argue that the man in the moon really *is* made of green cheese with voracious certainty. They make sound science a petting zoo for slippery logicians and a museum of aggressive personality disorders. I’ve long since ceased getting mad at them and instead look at them with wonder as examples of genetic diversity’s ability to produce Darwin’s unfit. I have a great time picturing what these audiophile Napoleons actually are like in real life and stand in amazement that they are intellectually functional enough to operate a computer. The wonderful world of commercial deception produces some amazing offspring. They always entertain.

So I raise a glass to Sound Science and wish one and all a happy new year… or an angry and insistent one if that’s your thing. Long may science endure under the boot of stupidity and craven commercialism. We are the tiny spark of truth that even the Pharisees of high end hoodoo can’t stamp out. May we forever produce our line by line replies to delusion punctuated by enthusiastic punctuation and satirical humor that flies right over the heads of the local authorities. We are the slayers of stupid. LONG LIVE SOUND SCIENCE! HUZZAH! HIP-HIP…

 

[2leftears]

They prove the Dunning-Kruger theory every day while they argue that the man in the moon really *is* made of green cheese with voracious certainty.

Thanks to the explorations of a brave inventor and his trusted dog, all we really know is that it isn't Wensleydale or Stilton.

 

[VNandor]

I've found an excellent writeup on the differences between sound power and sound pressure levels (and a bunch of other sound quantities as well). I think it's worth reading for anyone interested:
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-soundvalues.htm

In short, pressure level is a sound field quantity, this is what a microphone will measure, and the ears will hear. It's related to what happens at a particular point in some volume of air. Sound power level is a sound energy quantity, it's something that can not be measured with a microphone directly. Sound power level is related to the sound source. It shows the total power emitted by the source in all directions.

It's clear that depending on a bunch of factors, such as where the microphone is placed compared to the source, how the reflective surfaces interact with the sound, and the directionality of the source, the sound pressure level measured by the microphone would drastically change while the emitted sound power level would remain the same.
By making a couple of assumptions like assuming the source is infinitely small compared to the wavelength of the sound, the microphone is 1m away from the source and the complete lack of reflections, then the power level could be calculated from the pressure level.

I would also note that one of the earliest unit of loudness we came up with is the phon, which is related to sound pressure levels, not sound power levels. The above should explain while relating loudness to sound pressure level makes more sense than trying to relate it to sound power levels.

 

[AudioMastermind]

I've found an excellent writeup on the differences between sound power and sound pressure levels (and a bunch of other sound quantities as well). I think it's worth reading for anyone interested:
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-soundvalues.htm

In short, pressure level is a sound field quantity, this is what a microphone will measure, and the ears will hear. It's related to what happens at a particular point in some volume of air. Sound power level is a sound energy quantity, it's something that can not be measured with a microphone directly. Sound power level is related to the sound source. It shows the total power emitted by the source in all directions.

It's clear that depending on a bunch of factors, such as where the microphone is placed compared to the source, how the reflective surfaces interact with the sound, and the directionality of the source, the sound pressure level measured by the microphone would drastically change while the emitted sound power level would remain the same.
By making a couple of assumptions like assuming the source is infinitely small compared to the wavelength of the sound, the microphone is 1m away from the source and the complete lack of reflections, then the power level could be calculated from the pressure level.

I would also note that one of the earliest unit of loudness we came up with is the phon, which is related to sound pressure levels, not sound power levels. The above should explain while relating loudness to sound pressure level makes more sense than trying to relate it to sound power levels.

This is more or less why I use two 15-inch subwoofers placed directly below my mains speakers (Neumann KH120iis) crossed over at 100 Hz. Having time-aligned subwoofers handle higher bass frequencies allows for tremendously more low frequency sound pressure dispersed throughout the room.

 

[gregorio]

So they attack the current “king of the hill”.

Incidentally, I do not see myself as the “king of the hill” and don’t believe even thinking in those terms is either useful or healthy in a science discussion forum! It’s my job to know a lot of this stuff, so comparing me with others when it’s not their job isn’t fair on anyone, and besides, there are several here with better knowledge and/or experience of various aspects of audio. 71dB has a better understanding of the math, VNandor seems to have a very good/better grasp of at least some of the technicalities, castle has a better understanding and experience of the practicalities and issues of measuring headphones, and these are just a few examples, there are many others. I don’t think many others see me as “king of the hill” either, I think that some people just have an irrationally excessive response to their claims/assertions being challenged. Some seem especially invested in their beliefs, take a challenge to their assertions as some sort of fundamental attack on their entire existence and in some cases seem to hold that grudge pretty much forever, and will then challenge my assertions as some sort of revenge, regardless of whether there are any valid grounds to do so.

I've found an excellent writeup on the differences between sound power and sound pressure levels (and a bunch of other sound quantities as well).

When I was learning this stuff years ago, it was taught to me as “power quantities” and “field quantities”. Comparing Power Quantities such as Watts, acoustic Intensity, etc., uses the formula 10×log10(y/x) dB, EG. Double ≈ +3dB. While comparing Field Quantities such as electric field strength, voltage, current and sound pressure used the formula 20×log10(y/x) dB, EG. Double ≈ +6dB. I always found this “Power” vs “Field” quantities a useful mental differentiator, even though it isn’t always an accurate description.

It's clear that depending on a bunch of factors, such as where the microphone is placed compared to the source, how the reflective surfaces interact with the sound, and the directionality of the source, the sound pressure level measured by the microphone would drastically change while the emitted sound power level would remain the same.

This can get quite confusing because in addition, a sound pressure wave itself obviously has some energy and also of course, a speaker requires energy to produce sound, however, the relationship between these two is rarely discussed and not obvious. Firstly, in audio we don’t usually measure the energy/power contained in a sound wave, we typically measure the wave itself, the amplitude/level of its pressure. Consumers and sound/music engineers will therefore rarely, if ever, have any idea of the sound/acoustic energy they’re dealing with. Secondly, the power a speaker requires to produce a sound is vastly different to the energy the resultant sound wave contains, due to the fact that speakers are highly inefficient. So for example, a speaker using 100W of power to produce a sound will result in a sound wave that has (extremely roughly) about 1W of energy.

The above is for the benefit of others, rather than a response to you personally.

G

 

[bigshot]

I agree that all of us contribute important things and there is no “king”. But the invaders see it differently. They burn to be respected and they think the way to do that is to tear down whoseever’s head stands up the tallest. There’s a lot of competition and bluff in audiophile circles. They know that they really don’t have the facts behind them. So they try to look important to folks so they will be looked upon like an expert. It’s an ego thing as you say. That’s exactly why Amir couldn’t last in this forum. He wouldn’t just take a place alongside us. He had to be above us. He messed up and couldn’t just admit his mistake and move on with us, so he retreated to create his own forum that he could sculpt into being his own kingdom.

 

[gregorio]

That’s exactly why Amir couldn’t last in this forum. He wouldn’t just take a place alongside us. He had to be above us. He messed up and couldn’t admit his mistake, so he retreated to create his own forum that he could sculpt into being his own kingdom.

Maybe, I’m not sure of that. Amir clearly was an expert, or at least had some considerable expertise, the problem is that he only had expertise in some areas (the same as many of us) and in other areas he was well read but had no experience and therefore sometimes misapplied what he read and/or failed to appreciate what actually happens in practice. Clearly he really did not like his assertions being challenged, presumably he wasn’t used to it, and fought for many pages before he started to realise he’d painted himself into a logical cul de sac and then disappeared forever. Interestingly, as his forum has grown, he seems to have softened somewhat, so it’s not nearly as “sculpted into his own kingdom” as expected. He’s not as extreme and absolutist about what is audible for example, presumably because he realises he would alienate most of his main contributors/paying members/sponsors.

G

 

[71 dB]

But it’s clear that certain people are jealous of Gregorio’s knowledge and position in this forum. Instead of respecting him and interacting as a peer, they try to attack him and negate his knowledge in a vain attempt to tear him down. This is an adolescent way of competing. It doesn’t matter what Gregorio does or says. His hyperbolic replies wouldn’t cause someone who was secure as a peer to reply in kind. Only people who are insecure would try to one up that.

I am not a jealous type of person. I don't see the World as a zero sum game. Instead I want the World to be a fair and good place for everybody. Gregorio's knowledge for example is a massive strength/asset to Sound Science corner of head-fi forum. I had serious problems with him in the beginning after coming here, because it took me about two years to realise some of my assumptions about human spatial hearing, especially the perceptual/individual side of it, were faulty. This destroyed the original reason for me to come to this forum (that's why it all was so hard for me personally) and I had to find my real role here. I believe I did this somewhat successfully and as a result I have had much less problems with other members.

A lot of people on Head Fi dearly want to be seen as an authority who people look up to, but haven’t a clue as to a way to actually earn that respect. So they attack the current “king of the hill”. It’s lame.

In the beginning I was like this, but I have changed and I believe everyone else here agrees. I have had hardly any success in life. It seems I have made wrong decisions. It seems I am not very talented or intelligent individual. I have realised I am not even neurotypical, but autistic. Maybe I haven't had much luck in life? So, life turned out a struggle for me and accepting this harsh reality has helped finding a way to manage somehow. I understand now that earning a little respect is a big win for me.