Testing audiophile claims and myths

[bigshot]

Actually all I said was that I do not care what Amir’s methodology shows about a piece of audio gear - I am not saying nor have I said that his measurements don’t matter per se, what I said was they don’t matter TO ME.

I don't care for his conclusions about audibility, but I have no doubt his measurements are correct. If you understand the basics of how digital audio works, and you're familiar with the thresholds of human hearing, you can look at someone's measurements and have a general idea about their importance. You don't have to depend on Amir's conclusions in the paragraph at the end of the article. You can understand for yourself and put his measurements in perspective for your particular use. Obviously, the standards for a recording studio are more stringent than the standards for your living room.

 

[bigshot]

No, recording is recording. Measuring is measuring.

BZZZZT! Sorry, wrong answer!

Sampling is measuring a signal and assigning digital 0s and 1s to describe it. A waveform is a graph showing where frequency and amplitude exist in time. It is 100% measuring. It just allows you to take those measurements an reconstruct the physical sound again by running the measurements through a DAC.

 

[Moonglum]

My point is simply that you have choice - Amir is not some superhero saving poor uneducated audiophiles from
the big bad Audio companies trying to deceive them, yet that is how some
of his proponents pitch his role. Take his word as gospel, as part of a bigger picture or dismiss it, it doesn’t matter, it’s down to the individual to make
up their own mind.

 

[bigshot]

Wow thanks for that ! So are you implying I have both a personality disorder and a mental illness as well ?!

Nope. I don't know you from Adam. You are a green avatar with a funny name to me. That's it.

 

[bigshot]

My point is simply that you have choice - Amir is not some superhero saving poor uneducated audiophiles from
the big bad Audio companies trying to deceive them, yet that is how some
of his proponents pitch his role. Take his word as gospel, as part of a bigger picture or dismiss it, it doesn’t matter, it’s down to the individual to make
up their own mind.

Absolutely correct. I would just add one thing... Make up your own mind based on facts and an understanding of how digital audio works, not based on subjective impressions which can easily be completely skewed by bias and perceptual error. We have tools for reducing those errors... blind, level matched, direct A/B switched, multiple trials averaged. Any professor of psychology can tell you about these things.

Funk's statement that recording isn't measuring is a 14 karat gold plated example of not having an understanding of how digital audio works. He's in a forum where there are people who know a lot more about it than he does. If he wasn't so focused on defending his unsupported position and was open to listening instead of arguing, he might learn something. Do you think he is capable of that?

 

[Moonglum]

Nope. I don't know you from Adam. You are a green avatar with a funny name to me. That's it.

Then why the hostility- I don’t see folks who post that they are networking experts being asked to prove it I mean
what do you want a copy of my CV ?

 

[Moonglum]

Absolutely correct. I would just add one thing... Make up your own mind based on facts and an understanding of how digital audio works, not based on subjective impressions which can easily be completely skewed by bias and perceptual error.

Why ? Why does it matter ? Do people make other purchases based on facts? People spend an awful lot of money on cars and a lot of those purchases are not wholly based on facts

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Why ? Why does it matter ? Do people make other purchases based on facts? People spend an awful lot of money on cars and a lot of those purchases are not wholly based on facts

Exactly. If it's your subjective preference, then it's not an "error".

By definition.

 

[Moonglum]

Exactly. If it's your subjective preference, then it's not an "error".

By definition.

It smacks of the attitude that measurement fans and Amir are doing some kind of public service and that’s what can come over as arrogant- I mean it’s not like they’re volunteering to do medical relief work in Africa…audiophiles don’t need saving

 

[FunkyBassMan]

It smacks of the attitude that measurement fans and Amir are doing some kind of public service and that’s what can come over as arrogant- I mean it’s not like they’re volunteering to do medical relief work in Africa…audiophiles don’t need saving

On the contrary, the pinball wizards of here and ASR need saving: they need to enter the real world and learn to use their ears and not only their meters.

 

[bigshot]

Then why the hostility- I don’t see folks who post that they are networking experts being asked to prove it I mean
what do you want a copy of my CV ?

I have no hostility. I think I've replied to your comments on point.

You're speaking to a television producer who has served as a recording and post production supervisor in the past, Gregorio is a sound engineer who has taught the subject on the college level. Other people here have degrees in electrical engineering and design audio equipment. I have no idea how your resume reads, but however it compares, I think you might have a problem claiming we don't know what we're talking about when it comes to audio recording and playback.

Why ? Why does it matter ? Do people make other purchases based on facts? People spend an awful lot of money on cars and a lot of those purchases are not wholly based on facts

People make uninformed and poor decisions all the time. It's everyone's right to be wrong. But I would hope that if you are going to take your own experience and share it as a suggestion for others to follow on the internet, you'd be careful to recommend your good and informed choices, not your bone-headed ones.

 

[Davesrose]

Yes but im interested in what you guys think he gets wrong- it’s not a trick question I’m genuinely interested and
always happy to be proven wrong-! I will happily admit I might be wrong about all this - wonder who else is willing to say that here ?!

If you spend the time to watch the poster's YouTube video, he brings up logical reasoning about his own knowledge of networking and what is irrelevant with his videos about audiophile network switches. And it's not a matter of coincidence that he brings up blind tests for testing actual audible differences.

 

[bigshot]

It smacks of the attitude that measurement fans and Amir are doing some kind of public service and that’s what can come over as arrogant- I mean it’s not like they’re volunteering to do medical relief work in Africa…audiophiles don’t need saving

Some don't want to be saved. I have no idea why that kind of person would bother to post in Sound Science though. This is a forum based on information, not impressions. It's a complete waste of time for them to argue with us, because they're woefully unable to participate on a peer level on this topic.

Other people aren't worth saving, because of the bad influence the internet can be on certain types of personalities that I mentioned earlier. They seem to relish arguing. We had one of those implode and get bounced out recently.

 

[Elegiac]

We've got to have some standards. I care about what people throw their money at because ultimately everything is connected at some level. There are consequences that may affect me, if a poor situation is left unchecked. If everyone is allowed to buy and sell crap, there's a good chance I will too. I don't wanna. You can apply this basic 'formula' to just about any human undertaking.

A lot of audio seems stuck in some pre-scientific age of alchemy, where gentleman tinkerers can peddle mystical tinctures for the ears. It's cringey.

 

[gregorio]

Yes but im interested in what you guys think he gets wrong- it’s not a trick question I’m genuinely interested and
always happy to be proven wrong-!

He’s infamous! He might “seem to know quite a bit about digital audio” but to anyone who really does know about digital audio it’s obvious he either knows pretty much nothing or does actually know but is deliberately lying about it.

We’ve critiqued his videos here before and the link bigshot posted contains a decent point by point criticism of that actual video.

The vids I’ve seen of his are just wall to wall BS. It would take a book to go through every single one of his false assertions, do you have any specific ones you would like addressing?

I will happily admit I might be wrong about all this - wonder who else is willing to say that here ?!

I wouldn’t be happy to admit I’m wrong, because my job relies on digital devices, plus I quite like my consumer digital devices and the internet, and if I were wrong none of them would exist.

I don’t see folks who post that they are networking experts being asked to prove it …

If they contradict themselves, post irrelevant nonsense, argue on the basis of fallacy, contradict the basic principles of networking and demonstrate nothing but ignorance of subject, then their claimed qualifications/credentials absolutely would be challenged. They’re not asked to “prove it” because they do not make false assertions regarding networking!

No, recording is recording. Measuring is measuring.

Recording what? What is it that you think digital audio is recording?

G