Testing audiophile claims and myths

[FunkyBassMan]

it’s proven that a measurement captures everything that’s in an analogue signal
G

Show me the proof.

 

[Moonglum]

gregorio hasn't shown to be wrong. It's you and Moonglum who have asserted that subjective hearing trumps measurements and basic science. On the iFi thread, audiophiles dismissed ASR measurements, because even though he measured higher bandwidth and noise levels that showed no difference, it gets back to "but I plug it into my system and it sounds different". I've been hearing this claim that it's not about digital data bandwidth, but reducing accumulated noise that gets picked up by audio components (that seems to be formed after the subjective impression that there is a difference). If it were true that digital devices were so susceptible to noise, then we wouldn't have streaming music services serving digital music through thousands of server farms and millions of miles of data cables (or that if you listened to the same album streaming or CD level matched, it would sound the same).

Actually all I said was that I do not care what Amir’s methodology shows about a piece of audio gear - I am not saying nor have I said that his measurements don’t matter per se, what I said was they don’t matter TO ME. That’s different to me saying subjective should always trump measurements. I don’t make sweeping statements like that I simply state how I make purchase decisions. If someone wants to buy a cheap Chi-Fi DAC simply because Amir shows it measures well then all power to them. I don’t pretend to tell them how they should make their purchase decisions. But then by the same token why insist that everyone takes Amir’s approach to be the only viable one? Why not leave consumers to make up their own minds however they see fit? They don’t need rescuing from the evil clutches of audio companies. They have minds of their own. If you feel they are making ill
Informed purchases why does that bother you?

 

[gregorio]

It gets back to the argument that measurements capture everything.

What argument? There is no rational argument because Shannon proved it 75 years ago, no one has ever disproved it and if he were wrong there would be no digital devices, internet or “digital age”!

Show me the proof.

The Nyquist/Shannon Theorem. Plus the obvious fact that digital devices, the internet and the digital age actually exist! How are you typing your posts, how are you posting them and where are you posting them if the internet and digital devices don’t exist?

G

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Actually all I said was that I do not care what Amir’s methodology shows about a piece of audio gear - I am not saying nor have I said that his measurements don’t matter per se, what I said was they don’t matter TO ME. That’s different to me saying subjective should always trump measurements. I don’t make sweeping statements like that I simply state how I make purchase decisions. If someone wants to buy a cheap Chi-Fi DAC simply because Amir shows it measures well then all power to them. I don’t pretend to tell them how they should make their purchase decisions. But then by the same token why insist that everyone takes Amir’s approach to be the only viable one? Why not leave consumers to make up their own minds however they see fit? They don’t need rescuing from the evil clutches of audio companies. They have minds of their own. If you feel they are making ill
Informed purchases why does that bother you?

Perfectly said.

 

[FunkyBassMan]

What argument? There is no rational argument because Shannon proved it 75 years ago, no one has ever disproved it and if he were wrong there would be no digital devices, internet or “digital age”!

The Nyquist/Shannon Theorem. Plus the obvious fact that digital devices, the internet and the digital age actually exist! How are you typing your posts, how are you posting them and where are you posting them if the internet and digital devices don’t exist?

G

Lol, the Nyquist theorem has exactly zero to do with measurements.

I love how you constantly respond to points by bringing up things that have NOTHING to do with the point, like buffers and god knows whatever randomness haha.

 

[Moonglum]

By the way Hans Beekhuyzen on YouTube seems to know quite a bit about digital audio - are his videos about the sound of Ethernet switches etc completely wrong ? I’m interested to know what aspects of his videos you feel are incorrect?

 

[Ryokan]

I couldn't get much further, without being told I'm breaking forum rules: IE talking about bias or controlled testing has to be limited to Sound Science.

If only it extended the other way for the science forum.

 

[bigshot]

This is of course a total lie. There are thousands of posts that contradict manufacturers' marketing.

When there is a ban against mentioning the principle method of determining a factual basis for contradicting a manufacturer's claim, I wouldn't exactly call it "fair and balanced".

As for the "psychology professor at a leading European university"... It shouldn't come as any surprise that people lie on the internet. The anonymity of screen names gives certain kinds of people permission to lie and manipulate others, and the way forums are run, it's rare for someone to be publicly called out if they do that. Sometimes the topic of the group isn't the stated topic, the real topic being the free reign of mental illness and personality disorders. I would bet that the so-called "psychology professor" would be worthy of study himself.

 

[bigshot]

how many audiophiles regularly do this before making purchases and is it realistic to expect them to ?

Raising my hand. Every piece of electronic equipment (not transducers) I purchase gets a controlled listening test to determine if it is audibly transparent. If it isn't, I would send it back, but I haven't had to do that yet. A controlled comparison doesn't have to be conducted to clinical standards to be useful. It isn't difficult, nor is it expensive to do personal listening tests. I think you'll find that just about all of us here in Sound Science have done blind tests. If you would like help setting one up yourself, I think you'll find us to be willing to help, letting you know which controls are imperative to apply, and how to properly conduct a listening test.

 

[Moonglum]

When there is a ban against mentioning the principle method of determining a factual basis for contradicting a manufacturer's claim, I wouldn't exactly call it "fair and balanced".

As for the "psychology professor at a leading European university"... It shouldn't come as any surprise that people lie on the internet. The anonymity of screen names gives certain kinds of people permission to lie and manipulate others, and the way forums are run, it's rare for someone to be publicly called out if they do that. Sometimes the topic of the group isn't the stated topic, the real topic being the free rein of mental illness and personality disorders. I would bet that the so-called "psychology professor" would be worthy of study himself.

Wow thanks for that ! So are you implying I have both a personality disorder and a mental illness as well ?!
Much of my research career has been spent conducting research on group dynamics, prejudice and discrimination and this thread is providing some excellent material for lectures on those topics I must say. You yourself are also hiding behind the anonymity of a user name btw. Can you blame me for doing that when I get comments like this ?
I have already received death threats in the past for some of my research publications because some people have misunderstood them - I’m naturally cautious about revealing my identity in some forums for this reason. It’s actually surprisingly common for social scientists to receive threats sadly.

 

[bigshot]

Show me the proof.

Re: Everything in an audio signal is measurable.

That one is drop dead easy... With digital audio, THE ACT OF RECORDING IS MEASURING. We measure everything we record.

 

[Davesrose]

Actually all I said was that I do not care what Amir’s methodology shows about a piece of audio gear - I am not saying nor have I said that his measurements don’t matter per se, what I said was they don’t matter TO ME. That’s different to me saying subjective should always trump measurements. I don’t make sweeping statements like that I simply state how I make purchase decisions. If someone wants to buy a cheap Chi-Fi DAC simply because Amir shows it measures well then all power to them. I don’t pretend to tell them how they should make their purchase decisions. But then by the same token why insist that everyone takes Amir’s approach to be the only viable one? Why not leave consumers to make up their own minds however they see fit? They don’t need rescuing from the evil clutches of audio companies. They have minds of their own. If you feel they are making ill
Informed purchases why does that bother you?

People are free to spend however much money they want. No one is arguing this is a free market where they can feel justified spending anything they want/afford. Why do you think I would be bothered by that? The argument was that people involved with networking of data that exceeds that of audio don't know proper measurements when it comes to an audible measurement if the same data protocols for audio.

As for Hans Beekhuzen, it is easy to find arguments against his ideas: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/ffnz58/hans_beekhuyzen_the_sound_of_ethernet_switches/

 

[Moonglum]

People are free to spend however much money they want. No one is arguing this is a free market where they can feel justified spending anything they want/afford. Why do you think I would be bothered by that? The argument was that people involved with networking of data that exceeds that of audio don't know proper measurements when it comes to an audible measurement if the same data protocols for audio.

As for Hans Beekhuzen, it is easy to find arguments against his ideas: https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/ffnz58/hans_beekhuyzen_the_sound_of_ethernet_switches/

Yes but im interested in what you guys think he gets wrong- it’s not a trick question I’m genuinely interested and
always happy to be proven wrong-! I will happily admit I might be wrong about all this - wonder who else is willing to say that here ?!

 

[FunkyBassMan]

Re: Everything in an audio signal is measurable.

That one is drop dead easy... With digital audio, THE ACT OF RECORDING IS MEASURING. We measure everything we record.

No, recording is recording. Measuring is measuring.

 

[gregorio]

Actually all I said was that I do not care what Amir’s methodology shows about a piece of audio gear.

Clearly that’s false, I’ve quoted numerous assertions you’ve made that have nothing to do with Amir’s methodology.

Perfectly said.

If you’re after falsehood, it is indeed perfect!

Lol, the Nyquist theorem has exactly zero to do with measurements.

So, you can’t even read or understand the very first paragraph of the introduction?

“Sampling is a process of converting a signal (for example, a function of continuous time or space) into a sequence of values (a function of discrete time or space). Shannon's version of the theorem states: …”

What do you think those values are? You think maybe they’re just a “sequence of values” made-up by microscopic audiophile pixies inside ADCs? Have you never heard of quantisation?

I love how you constantly respond to points by bringing up things that have NOTHING to do with the point, like buffers haha.

Sure data buffers have nothing to do with Ethernet, all digital audio plays in real time over Ethernet, no buffers involved. This is great for 4 hour Wagner operas that play in about 5 minutes. You’re a funny guy!

G