[VancityDreaming]

What does properly mean to you?

Does it feel anemic? Underpowered? Lacking full body? Needs an amp?

 

[Whitigir]

The ZX300 has an FPGA? Really? Xilinx or Altera?

I'm like 99% sure there's no FPGA in it, because if there is, you'd bet anything Sony will definitely show it off. Not to mention, if it did, it'd have burned a whole in my pocket AND also be ridiculously power-inefficient.

And because it's not an FPGA, unless you're doing some background processing, there's nothing firmware-side that will affect the sound except if they decide to do power regulation through the chip and allow the amp to be juiced up a bit more.

Also, any recommended sources on delta-sigma modulators? Bit rusty on it these days so curious what the industry's up to.

you know so much about Sony Walkman. I am glad to learn it from you
I don’t know anything about sigma Delta modulations, so I cannot point you to a source.

 

[candlejack]

And because it's not an FPGA, unless you're doing some background processing, there's nothing firmware-side that will affect the sound except if they decide to do power regulation through the chip and allow the amp to be juiced up a bit more.

If that's the case, what do you make of recent firmware craze over on the wm1a/wm1z thread?

What would change if it was using an FPGA instead of (I guess) a microprocessor/microcontroller?

 

[candlejack]

Does it feel anemic? Underpowered? Lacking full body? Needs an amp?

I've been using this combo for close to a year and have never felt it was lacking in any way... even after trying more expensive DAP options. I'm about to receive a Sony TA-ZH1ES desktop DAC/Amp, so I can compare again and get back to you.

 

[VancityDreaming]

I've been using this combo for close to a year and have never felt it was lacking in any way... even after trying more expensive DAP options. I'm about to receive a Sony TA-ZH1ES desktop DAC/Amp, so I can compare again and get back to you.

Would love to hear about it! Thanks man. Have a good day!

 

[dazzerfong]

If that's the case, what do you make of recent firmware craze over on the wm1a/wm1z thread?

What would change if it was using an FPGA instead of (I guess) a microprocessor/microcontroller?

No comment: not gonna ruffle any feathers either way over there as I have zero experience with the WM1A. I already know there's a bit of controversy involving the hardware mods and 'overeager' members. Thin-skinned members will attack me either way. That being said, it's funny how every single mod improves sound.

So right now, the ZX300 uses an DAC chip to do conversions (the S-Master). As it's application-specfic, you call that an ASIC. The main difference between these discrete chips and FPGAs is that:

- FPGAs are infinitely customisable and programmable to achieve the necessary requirements (within the hardware constraints).
- If you know what you're doing, you can compile your own code into an FPGA. Key word being 'know what you're doing' because this requires very specific knowledge of hardware description language and tools that aren't anything like normal software programming (i.e. apps).
- FPGAs are much less efficient as they have a lot of 'fat' to accommodate all the permutations they can think of. One simplified example is addition: if you need to add something, you might be able to do it in a single cycle with an ADC chip as there's a built-in function that can do that almost instantly. With an FPGA, you need to manually go through each bit and then do a NAND operation. Of course, it might be able to do it quickly, but that means that it uses up a lot more cycles to achieve the same thing.
- Prices skyrocket. FPGAs are ludicrously expensive because they're generally not intended to be used for large-scale production. What I mean by that, is that if you're planning on scaling up, you start with an FPGA, use it as a prototype and then make a specific chip that has only the features you need. However, there's no start-up cost to using FPGAs as you don't need to develop an ASIC - thus, no need to amortise the development cost of the ASIC.

 

[briant4pres]

How Are you so sure of this ?
Different Sigma Delta Modulator has different sound signature.
The Walkman has FPGA, and that it could be programmable

I recommend you to go read up on Sigma Delta modulation and digital audio engineering foundation to understand more about how different sigma Delta modulator can affect the sounds. If you are truly enthusiastic

Where in these firmwares do they say anything is modified with the modulator?

 

[Whitigir]

I don’t know much about Walkman. You should ask people who knows like @dazzerfong
I don’t even have a Zx300
I briefly looked into the firmware of Zx300 just out of curiosity but that is no longer needed

 

[VancityDreaming]

I don’t know much about Walkman. You should ask people who knows like @dazzerfong
I don’t even have a Zx300
I briefly looked into the firmware of Zx300 just out of curiosity but that is no longer needed

Sorry I wasnt following the convo. But just in a short yes or no answer. Can you mod the zx300's firmware like you did with the wm1a/1z? Thanks

 

[candlejack]

No comment: not gonna ruffle any feathers either way over there as I have zero experience with the WM1A. I already know there's a bit of controversy involving the hardware mods and 'overeager' members. Thin-skinned members will attack me either way. That being said, it's funny how every single mod improves sound.

So right now, the ZX300 uses an DAC chip to do conversions (the S-Master). As it's application-specfic, you call that an ASIC. The main difference between these discrete chips and FPGAs is that:

- FPGAs are infinitely customisable and programmable to achieve the necessary requirements (within the hardware constraints).
- If you know what you're doing, you can compile your own code into an FPGA. Key word being 'know what you're doing' because this requires very specific knowledge of hardware description language and tools that aren't anything like normal software programming (i.e. apps).
- FPGAs are much less efficient as they have a lot of 'fat' to accommodate all the permutations they can think of. One simplified example is addition: if you need to add something, you might be able to do it in a single cycle with an ADC chip as there's a built-in function that can do that almost instantly. With an FPGA, you need to manually go through each bit and then do a NAND operation. Of course, it might be able to do it quickly, but that means that it uses up a lot more cycles to achieve the same thing.
- Prices skyrocket. FPGAs are ludicrously expensive because they're generally not intended to be used for large-scale production. What I mean by that, is that if you're planning on scaling up, you start with an FPGA, use it as a prototype and then make a specific chip that has only the features you need. However, there's no start-up cost to using FPGAs as you don't need to develop an ASIC - thus, no need to amortise the development cost of the ASIC.

It's a shame I can only give 1 like per post. I think we should have a budget of 10 likes per day that we can spend on 1 or more posts.

Thanks a lot for dropping all this knowledge. I was confused thinking that an FPGA is a purely digital device, so I assumed you were discussing about using an FPGA instead of a microprocessor/microcontroller to handle data flow to the the ADC chip. You can tell how much I know about audio device topology. Sheesh!

I hope you don't mind if I come back with more questions later. Btw, do you know a good source I can use to gather some foundational knowledge? I am an engineer by profession (studied mechanical, working in software), so it doesn't have to be super dumbed down, but I also cannot commit to a deep dive into the subject.

Just when I think there's only misinformation on this forum, someone like you comes along. So again, many thanks for sharing!

 

[candlejack]

Would love to hear about it! Thanks man. Have a good day!

Will do! Just be advised that I tend to not hear/be impressed by the differences between sources, while at the same time being very picky about headphones. You can interpret that any way you like.

 

[dazzerfong]

It's a shame I can only give 1 like per post. I think we should have a budget of 10 likes per day that we can spend on 1 or more posts.

Thanks a lot for dropping all this knowledge. I was confused thinking that an FPGA is a purely digital device, so I assumed you were discussing about using an FPGA instead of a microprocessor/microcontroller to handle data flow to the the ADC chip. You can tell how much I know about audio device topology. Sheesh!

I hope you don't mind if I come back with more questions later. Btw, do you know a good source I can use to gather some foundational knowledge? I am an engineer by profession (studied mechanical, working in software), so it doesn't have to be super dumbed down, but I also cannot commit to a deep dive into the subject.

Just when I think there's only misinformation on this forum, someone like you comes along. So again, many thanks for sharing!

Glad you enjoyed the read.

The simplest way of thinking what the difference between a microprocessor and an FPGA is:

-You can build a microprocessor out of an FPGA (albeit a slow one), but you cannot build an FPGA out of a microprocessor.

-The difference between an ASIC and a microprocessor is that ASICs are specially-built for a very limited range of tasks, whereas microprocessors can be used for almost anything (again, albeit slowly). Benefit is that, if you need a very niche application for a chip, ASICs are ridiculously expensive and involve a lot more NRE than just programming an FPGA. However, FPGA cost per unit is very high.

-And the difference between an FPGA and an ASIC is that you can change the logic within an FPGA, whereas the ASIC's logic is fixed.

The funny thing is that you actually could do what you suggested: it'll just be ridiculously difficult and power-hungry, but hey: who doesn't like a $1000 part to do the job that a $2 does?

I learned all this back in university an engineer too (sparky though): I'm now a medical electrical engineer. More concerned with ISO and IEC testing and compliance than actual design work these days. That being said, uni was fun when dealing with FPGAs: actually had to build a calculator out of FPGAs: that took an entire semester to do. Shame I didn't care a hoot about audio back then.

Honestly, learning all this is a mess: I barely picked anything up from uni in a cohesive manner, and more curiosity and deep-diving Wikipedia and IEEE standards to make heads or tails of stuff. Personally, I'm terrible at networking and know almost nothing about that side of the business. Funnily enough, a lot of this curiosity started with Nwavguy's O2 amp and ODAC: his explanation of things brought me down a rabbit hole...

Anyway, since you're a dirty software engineer, you're on your own. I deal with software cowboys on a daily basis enough as it is: I ain't facing more on my off-hours!

 

[PCWar]

Guys can someone share any source for such info. Sony advertises the same S-master chip powering either the ZX300 or the WM1A/Z. It's the first time I am reading about such difference and am not sure if this is the case unless we're speculating here.

Albeit there is an improvement or not with the different firmwares for the WM1A/Z I believe no one disagreed on the fact that there are differences among them leading me to think that if re-coding of the ZX300 firmware would be possible similar affects could be achievable even with the lower priced DAP.

 

[Whitigir]

Sorry I wasnt following the convo. But just in a short yes or no answer. Can you mod the zx300's firmware like you did with the wm1a/1z? Thanks

Guys can someone share any source for such info. Sony advertises the same S-master chip powering either the ZX300 or the WM1A/Z. It's the first time I am reading about such difference and am not sure if this is the case unless we're speculating here.

Albeit there is an improvement or not with the different firmwares for the WM1A/Z I believe no one disagreed on the fact that there are differences among them leading me to think that if re-coding of the ZX300 firmware would be possible similar affects could be achievable even with the lower priced DAP.

the answer is both, Yes and No

 

[PCWar]

Cannot be more clear than this