Smyth Research Realiser A16
Sep 12, 2021 at 3:36 PM Post #12,196 of 15,988
Can ManLoud change the result dramatically?
For my head the front scene on 3DSoundshop demo files is not convincing at all. Can ManLoud really change that ?
In a perfect model, you'd have good symmetry for your head and ears, the left and right mics would have the same FR curve when recording in the ears, you'd naturally look right in the middle when watching TV or whatever. So there would be no interaural information at all(no time delay, no FR deviation between channels) for the brain to work with. Only the general FR would give you some clue about elevation of the sound source, depending on what frequency got bounced more by the outer ear.

In that scenario, you adjust the FR to the one you need to perceive horizontal mono(hopefully ManLoud is enough for you to come closer to something meaningful for you), et en voiture Simone.
If anything isn't like the ideal scenario, and another head measured the room, who knows what differences you'll end up with and what you'd need to convincingly compensate for it? I don't. Getting closer to the FR you're used to for sounds in front of you in your daily life, is a step in the right direction. No doubt about it. But will it be enough? Will ManLoud actually lead to that? IDK and I'm not overly optimistic TBH.
 
Sep 12, 2021 at 3:53 PM Post #12,197 of 15,988
(Side question for John - any news on the Dutch&Dutch PRIRs?).
It's not looking good.

From the Dutch and Dutch Dealer on Sept 9th 2021

They (Dutch and Dutch) still have not been able to send a demo pair. Stock has been very limited as they are still filling back orders.

FYI... In order to demo the speakers... I still need to pay full retail price to use them... nearly $13,000 a pair.
 
Sep 12, 2021 at 4:03 PM Post #12,198 of 15,988
Ofc,
Can ManLoud change the result dramatically?
For my head the front scene on 3DSoundshop demo files is not convincing at all. Can ManLoud really change that ?


Even if u try manSPK? i like this more then the manLOUD.

And try this settings;

4,7khz about -1 ~ -3db
5,0khz - 6,1khz about -2 ~ -5db
6,5khz - 7,3khz about -8 ~ -13db or more
7,6khz about -1 ~ -3db
This should give u some wider and more infront sound.
 
Sep 12, 2021 at 4:03 PM Post #12,199 of 15,988
It's not looking good.

From the Dutch and Dutch Dealer on Sept 9th 2021

They (Dutch and Dutch) still have not been able to send a demo pair. Stock has been very limited as they are still filling back orders.

FYI... In order to demo the speakers... I still need to pay full retail price to use them... nearly $13,000 a pair.
And I don’t even want to know about return shipping and restocking fees!
 
Sep 12, 2021 at 6:23 PM Post #12,201 of 15,988
Have you tried the Dolby Channel check feature of my website at: https://3dsoundshop.com/audio-test/

While playing any of the speaker brands...click on/off of the 2.0 Stereo button... You will hear the room disappear and then reappear. I love this feature... After listening to Dolby Atmos via the Realiser... It's easy to take the sound of multiple channel audio (via headphones) for granted.

Although my PRIRs will work for many... I think it's common knowledge that there are a few users who will require (for best results) an in person PRIR session.

Sadly...since even the BBC PRIR does not work for you, I doubt even the manLOUD correction will be to your liking.
Unfortunately, i can even say that the BBC room is the worst for me. The front scene litterally sound between my ears (though technically since i use headphones, all rooms do LITTERALLY sound between my ears, but you know what i mean :sweat_smile: )
I don't have a possibility for the moment to capture a room myself. I am thinking of taking an appointment with Gilles in Paris at some point when Covid calms down to get my own PRIR of his 9.1.6 room, though he doesn't seem to propose this service anymore on his website, maybe for the same reason.
It's a bit frustrating to know that somewhere in Smy Research office there is a PRIR file of the measurement i made in Paris of a 7.1.4 setup back in 2016 that was supposed to be preloaded on my unit when it was sent (at least that's what they promised back then), but i'm still waiting for it to be sent it to me somehow... one year ago, Stephen Smyth said the Realiser Exchange would open before the end of 2020... :thinking:
 
Sep 12, 2021 at 7:28 PM Post #12,202 of 15,988
In a perfect model, you'd have good symmetry for your head and ears, the left and right mics would have the same FR curve when recording in the ears, you'd naturally look right in the middle when watching TV or whatever. So there would be no interaural information at all(no time delay, no FR deviation between channels) for the brain to work with. Only the general FR would give you some clue about elevation of the sound source, depending on what frequency got bounced more by the outer ear.

In that scenario, you adjust the FR to the one you need to perceive horizontal mono(hopefully ManLoud is enough for you to come closer to something meaningful for you), et en voiture Simone.
If anything isn't like the ideal scenario, and another head measured the room, who knows what differences you'll end up with and what you'd need to convincingly compensate for it? I don't. Getting closer to the FR you're used to for sounds in front of you in your daily life, is a step in the right direction. No doubt about it. But will it be enough? Will ManLoud actually lead to that? IDK and I'm not overly optimistic TBH.
I know Smyth Research promised some kind of BRIR customization which involved buying a speaker with a tweeter from them, creating some kind of file which you would send to them, and then have them send some kind of adjustment file to, I think, universally personalize all BRIRs to your individual HRTF. I'm wondering if that was just a version of ManLoud or something different, apart from and better than ManLoud?
 
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Sep 12, 2021 at 8:29 PM Post #12,203 of 15,988
I think I've found the ideal web cam to capture the image on the Realiser dashboard and mirror it to a larger screen (like your Home Theater TV).

https://www.amazon.com/HUE-Document...e/dp/B08QN8WJJB/ref=psdc_172511_t1_B000TTIP40

It has a focal range from 1 centimeter to infinity, a wide angle lens, and a long, flexible neck. Could certainly be inconspicuously placed so the lens is in front of the screen on the A16. Will then send real time images of that screen to the TV, It's $89.95 but I think worth it if it means no longer walking across the room to look at the A16's tiny 2" x 4" screen.
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 12:16 AM Post #12,204 of 15,988
. Have you tried an electrostatic setup as well? I know Smyth previously recommended an entry level Stax earspeaker to pair with the A8.

As a longtime (from the early 80's) "only Stax" user, I am only able to comment on five models of Stax open electrotats, and not entry level. Also, three Stax amps, the last two of which have been tubes (ever since first being available from around 1995).

Before Smyth's A8 I had used at least three manufacturers' version of Dolby Headphone "virtual surround" software (built into their own hardware devices) through the same headphone/amp equipment, and suffice it to say there's no need to discuss comparing them. When the A8 finally became real in 2009 that was thankfully the end for me for Dolby Headphone. It's only been SVS and AIX personal 5.1/7/1 PRIR captured in June 2009 that's been used ever since, and only through Stax headphones (SR-Omega and SR-009) and Stax amps (SRM-T1s and SRM-007tII). First on the A8 and more recently on the A16.

I've listened to several other headphone types (all closed), and never thought them to be as "enjoyable" as the open Stax type. Didn't matter the audio material, no matter 2-channel music stereo or multi-channel video-related audio, everything just seemed to sound better to me listening through my Stax electrostats.

Now comes the A8, and the opportunity to get a custom personal 5.1/7/1 PRIR made at AIX (unfortunately no longer an option). What a miracle. Just a fantastic sounding room when you sat in it and listened to anything. But nothing can really prepare you for the surprise of hearing the A/B-comparison at the end of the calibration session, to be sure that the PRIR/HPEQ actually DUPLICATES THE SOUND OF THE ROOM. Because that's what the Realiser is really for... to DUPLICATE THE SOUND OF THE CAPTURED ROOM, reflecting all of the parts and pieces that went into making that room sound the way it did. All of the electronics, speaker sizes, types and placements, floor/wall/ceiling baffles and treatments, etc., which went into producing the sound as your ears/brain hear it, during that measurement session, sitting in the chair you sat in at that precise location, it all gets "captured" through the microphones and the PRIR technology.

And when something then gets gets played back "in reverse" through that very PRIR, and through the very headphones used to produce the personally measured HPEQ that characterizes of that physical headphone as your ears/brain hear it... well you're not really expecting what the A/B-comparison effect will actually be. It's always like "...wait, did you turn the headphones on yet? Am I listening to the speakers or the headphone? Which one is on now??" You're really not prepared for this, and it always makes you smile. Like you've somehow been tricked. But you really haven't been. It's real.

Now I thought listening to CD-audio music through my SR-009/SRM-T007tII without any SVS, but purely direct from the CD source, was fabnulous. And sure the sound was considerably superior to my older SR-Omega/SRM-T1s, as would be expected. It was noticeably more "clean and real" and with a larger out-of-the-head but still "intimate" sensation that told me I was still listening through headphones, albeit much more precise and transparent and fantastic ones. But I now find that I prefer listening to the same 2-channel CD audio through my AIX PRIR (either 5.1 or 7.1, as they had the same L/R/C speaker placement, and either through the A8 or A16), that it really is subjectively more "enjoyable". I see/hear the sound coming from "speakers in front of me" rather than "around my head, but directly into my left and right ears". It's like the enjoyment of sitting back in your chair in a real room and listening to the sound coming from the speakers in front of you... exactly as I heard sound in the real AIX room, sitting in the sweet-spot surrounded by real speakers.

So that's what this is really all about. The ability to DUPLICATE the sound of whatever listening environment you have the good fortune to be able to capture personally. If you do get an A16 you should really try and get a personal PRIR measurement made at some wonderful listening environment, either private or retail. That's the holy grail.

I have never done anything to tweak the original AIX PRIRs I obtained back in June 2009 through any of the new adjusments now possible with the A16. I consider those tools more for adjusting manually-created or borrowed PRIRs, or PRIRs created from 1 or 2 speakers, etc., rather than for manipulating personal captures of a genuine physical multi-speaker environment. The idea was to DUPLICATE how that room sounded to your ears/brain, not to try and produce a "best possible theoretical".

And of course, the better the headphones/amp you have, the better will the reproduced sound be through PRIR/HPEQ. It has to be better and more accurate and realistic, because the playback equipment itself is superior. I also use an external Audio-DG NFB9 DAC fed optically from the A8/A16 and feeding XLR to my Stax amps. I do believe that optional arrangement provides improved sound over the built-in DAC/amp inside the A8/A16. Not that the built-in hardware is bad, but I think the external DAC/amp just sounds glorious.

Again, I feel the wide open sound of the Stax SR-009/SRM-t007tII to be simply remarkable. Listening to the multi-channel audio track of a modern movie, it's really like it was being shown on the big screen at the front of that AIX studio room and I was sitting there. It's just that transparent, that realistic, and that much the sensation of actually hearing properly directional sound coming from around you where it should be coming from, like it would in a movie theater. Transparently.

I am still using the original 5.1/7/1 PRIR's captures at AIX in 2009. I have not been able to arrange for a current genuine Atmos setup to have a personal 9.1.6 PRIR. Maybe someday I'll get lucky. In the meantime I've just manually constructed a new 9.1.6 by adding the missing speakers from the A16-provided Surrey room, coupled with either the 5.1 or 7.1 AIX ear-level speakers, and it's perfectly fine.

I just love Stax electrostats.
 
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Sep 13, 2021 at 1:18 AM Post #12,205 of 15,988
yep.... takes some practice.... most people feel the HD800 is a bass light headphone... with the A16 I have played around with the settings I have actually gotten the bass so strong I was afraid they were going to self destruct.... obviously you don't ever want to run them that way... but you can tune them to sound very very good... so with that in mind some of the neutral tuned headphones should be a perfect match to the A16... I would love to be able to tune the DCA Stealth with the A16.... :)
The HD 800s can literally go infrasonic with the right eq.
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 1:31 AM Post #12,206 of 15,988
It's a bit frustrating to know that somewhere in Smy Research office there is a PRIR file of the measurement i made in Paris of a 7.1.4 setup back in 2016 that was supposed to be preloaded on my unit when it was sent (at least that's what they promised back then), but i'm still waiting for it to be sent it to me somehow... one year ago, Stephen Smyth said the Realiser Exchange would open before the end of 2020... :thinking:
I fully agree. I sent Smyth several emails asking if they could maybe release those measurements to us asking for a fee. As I understood they are having some money problems. Asking for example 100 EUR for finding my PRIR and HPEQ and sending it to me, would be a fair price for me. At the same time they would generate an income. Not sure why they did not take the offer.
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 5:59 AM Post #12,207 of 15,988
The manloud process took a bit of time for me to understand at an instinctive level, but once I got the hang of it I’m now super fast at tweaking Prirs. And 3DSoundshop ones are spectacular.
unfortunately I have only my mid end 7.2.4 system in a non ideal room to capture and I don’t think my prir will match a treated studio prir with such high end speakers as Johns.
Did you find any general tips and ways to master and understand deeply the manloud HPEQ to share with the community and specially for the ones who still didn t get a chance to have any proper PRIRs yet?
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 8:17 AM Post #12,208 of 15,988
Did you find any general tips and ways to master and understand deeply the manloud HPEQ to share with the community and specially for the ones who still didn t get a chance to have any proper PRIRs yet?

This video explains the process very well:



The higher bands are tricky to get right but I noticed that they are not really necessary in most cases, so focus on the lower bands first. The process isn't really complicated. Quickly go through each band to get a rough first pass, then do another one, and another one until all bands have roughly the same loudness. I don't think it is possible to get it 100% right, so don't get lost in the details. Personally, I found that I get the best results with the C speaker as the virtual speaker that outputs the noise.
 
Sep 13, 2021 at 8:30 AM Post #12,209 of 15,988
with the A16 I have played around with the settings I have actually gotten the bass so strong I was afraid they were going to self destruct
Fun fact: HPEQ doesn't affect frequencies below 500 Hz, the 0-500 Hz range is only affected as a whole...
Next thing I'm thinking about is buying one of those $25 webcams from Amazon, pointing it directly at my 2" X 3" dashboard window on my A16

It has a focal range from 1 centimeter to infinity
-> yep s.th. like that would be needed. I tried one of the cheaper webcams and it couldn't focus that close.
Turned out that the built-in cam of an old Android tablet I have could focus close enough and the tablet has a mini HDMI out, so we could put the picture of the A16 display onto a bigger monitor while doing PRIR measurements.

4,7khz about -1 ~ -3db
5,0khz - 6,1khz about -2 ~ -5db
6,5khz - 7,3khz about -8 ~ -13db or more
7,6khz about -1 ~ -3db
This should give u some wider and more infront sound.
I tend to say no. This may give YOU some wider and more infront sound, but for another person things may be wildly different.
You can't make a general rule here I'd say.
 
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Sep 13, 2021 at 9:53 AM Post #12,210 of 15,988
I fully agree. I sent Smyth several emails asking if they could maybe release those measurements to us asking for a fee. As I understood they are having some money problems. Asking for example 100 EUR for finding my PRIR and HPEQ and sending it to me, would be a fair price for me. At the same time they would generate an income. Not sure why they did not take the offer.

I've emailed the Smyths about this three times over the last few years (!) and have never gotten a reply. I've exchanged emails with the Smyths over a number of other questions/issues and they have generally responded, so the non-response stands out. My guess is that the data, which was collected with beta A-16 hardware and software, is not in a usable form. Perhaps they need to write a conversion tool or maybe the data has some more fundamental issue. Either way, it does not seem likely that we will ever get the files we were promised.
 

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