Genelec has just launched their Aural ID plugin. Has anyone around here compared Aural ID with a Realiser?
Smyth Research Realiser A16
phoenixdogfan
1000+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2015
- Posts
- 1,181
- Likes
- 463
You can't even buy it, they will rent it to you for 490 euros a year.
dsperber
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2005
- Posts
- 788
- Likes
- 302
An AVS Forum member (LJG) just pulled the trigger and ordered an A16 "retail". Expected to be shipped within 5 days.
On other matters my HD Fury Dr. HDMI 4K is due arrive on Thursday. We shall then see if that successfully solves the EDID problem where a "dead-end A16" connected as HDMI2-out (along with my LG OLED C9 connected as HDMI1-out) from my new A1080 AVR can be seen as a second "4K UHD/HDR Dolby-Vision capable display device" to the AVR and all prior Dolby Vision capable source devices going into the AVR. In theory that should then cause them (e.g. Netflix apps on those devices) to be willing to send Dolby Vision video to the AVR and beyond. And of course Dolby Atmos audio as well, not just 5.1.
Note that as mentioned previously, even with this HDMI1+2 output from the AVR (i.e. not using the splitter but instead using the two HDMI outputs of the AVR) it will STILL BE MANDATORY to (a) enable the "HDMI Standby Through" setting on the AVR, and then (b) POWER OFF THE AVR, in order to actually facilitate both DV video out through to the TV and DV audio out through to the A16. That is the ONLY way to get multi-channel audio out of HDMI from the AVR, when it is powered OFF and its own HDMI pass-through feature is enabled.
In contrast, when powered ON the AVR will only output 2-channel downmixed stereo through either HDMI1-out or HDMI2-out, since the connected devices are expected to be TVs with only 2 speakers. It's only when the AVR is POWERED OFF that its "HDMI pass-through" function gets activated, which in fact will pass-through untouched original source multi-channel (including Dolby Atmos and DTS:X) audio via HDMI1+2 outputs.
This new AVR HDMI1+2 approach to cabling (instead of using a splitter out of HDMI1) should allow optional support (WITHOUT MOVE ANY CABLES) for both:
(a) downmixed 2.0 stereo sound from AVR and two speakers as well as DV video on the TV, if the AVR is powered ON and A16 is powered OFF, or
(b) genuine multi-channel DD, Dolby Atmos and DTS:X sound from A16/headphones as well as DV video on the TV, if AVR is powered OFF and A16 is powered ON.
We shall see.
NOTE: this new approach does automatically support eARC only for audio going FROM TV APPS back TO THE AVR and suported 2.0 speakers for sound, since the HDMI cable going to the TV is coming from and HDMI output on the AVR. For eARC audio from TV to the A16 for headphone Atmos listening the HDMI cable going to the TV must be moved over from HDMI1-out of the AVR to HDMI-out of the A16 (temporarily replacing the HD Fury Dr. HDMI 4k).
IMPORTANT: regarding successful use of eARC audio from TV to A16, please see my remarks in next post.
On other matters my HD Fury Dr. HDMI 4K is due arrive on Thursday. We shall then see if that successfully solves the EDID problem where a "dead-end A16" connected as HDMI2-out (along with my LG OLED C9 connected as HDMI1-out) from my new A1080 AVR can be seen as a second "4K UHD/HDR Dolby-Vision capable display device" to the AVR and all prior Dolby Vision capable source devices going into the AVR. In theory that should then cause them (e.g. Netflix apps on those devices) to be willing to send Dolby Vision video to the AVR and beyond. And of course Dolby Atmos audio as well, not just 5.1.
Note that as mentioned previously, even with this HDMI1+2 output from the AVR (i.e. not using the splitter but instead using the two HDMI outputs of the AVR) it will STILL BE MANDATORY to (a) enable the "HDMI Standby Through" setting on the AVR, and then (b) POWER OFF THE AVR, in order to actually facilitate both DV video out through to the TV and DV audio out through to the A16. That is the ONLY way to get multi-channel audio out of HDMI from the AVR, when it is powered OFF and its own HDMI pass-through feature is enabled.
In contrast, when powered ON the AVR will only output 2-channel downmixed stereo through either HDMI1-out or HDMI2-out, since the connected devices are expected to be TVs with only 2 speakers. It's only when the AVR is POWERED OFF that its "HDMI pass-through" function gets activated, which in fact will pass-through untouched original source multi-channel (including Dolby Atmos and DTS:X) audio via HDMI1+2 outputs.
This new AVR HDMI1+2 approach to cabling (instead of using a splitter out of HDMI1) should allow optional support (WITHOUT MOVE ANY CABLES) for both:
(a) downmixed 2.0 stereo sound from AVR and two speakers as well as DV video on the TV, if the AVR is powered ON and A16 is powered OFF, or
(b) genuine multi-channel DD, Dolby Atmos and DTS:X sound from A16/headphones as well as DV video on the TV, if AVR is powered OFF and A16 is powered ON.
We shall see.
NOTE: this new approach does automatically support eARC only for audio going FROM TV APPS back TO THE AVR and suported 2.0 speakers for sound, since the HDMI cable going to the TV is coming from and HDMI output on the AVR. For eARC audio from TV to the A16 for headphone Atmos listening the HDMI cable going to the TV must be moved over from HDMI1-out of the AVR to HDMI-out of the A16 (temporarily replacing the HD Fury Dr. HDMI 4k).
IMPORTANT: regarding successful use of eARC audio from TV to A16, please see my remarks in next post.
dsperber
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2005
- Posts
- 788
- Likes
- 302
I have now removed the splitter from my configuration. I tried it, but in the end decided that the resulting loss of HDMI-CEC convenience, as well as loss of eARC audio from TV apps, was just too significant to accept.
The primary intended purpose of using the splitter was so that all sources could go directly through the AVR instead of going through the A16 and then out to the AVR. This increases the maximum number of input source devices from 4 (into the A16) up to 7-8 (into the AVR).
It also supports the AVR's abilty to deliver 2Ch-Stereo or 7Ch-Stereo (and other audio processing enhancements) for any AVR-supported speaker configuration, for any source.
It also supports almost all optional audio arrangements with audio either handled (a) by the AVR for speakers, or (b) by the A16 for headphones, and without requiring physical recabling.
And it supports all of the above without requiring that AVR and A16 both always be powered ON even when one or the other form of audio was not theoretically required for that particular listening mode. In particular it REQUIRES that when listening through headphones that the AVR be powered OFF (with its HDMi pass-through feature enabled, in order to deliver multi-channel audio out via HDMI to the A16). And when listening through speakers the A16 should be powered OFF (since it has no purpose).
All this is true, but at the cost of losing HDMI-CEC and eARC audio from TV apps back either to the AVR (for speaker audio) or to the A16 (for headphone audio). After a week or so of tryout I've now decided these costs are too great. The conveniences offered by the splitter where it provides an advantage are just not enough to outweigh the simultaneous loss of the real conveniences of HDMI-CEC. Loss of eARC audio is a fact, but not as much of a loss as HDMI-CEC.
So the splitter is out. I'm back to one HDMI cable going from AVR to TV (or temporarily moved to go from A16 to TV, when eARC audio is desired through headphones).
And by virtue of this latest round of experimenting, I've learned something new about the A16: IT CANNOT BE "DEAD-ENDED" if you want to get Atmos audio via eARC from TV apps.
In other words you cannot just have the one HDMI cable going between HDMI-out of the A16 and the TV, with no other HDMI cable connected to the A16 (i.e. just the TV and A16 are connected together via one HDMI cable, and no other HDMI handshake-visible device is in use or connected through other HDMI cables). Because if you do have the A16 "dead-ended" like this, and only connected to the TV, then it will NOT provide necessary EDID information to tell the TV apps that it is capable of receiving Dolby Atmos audio! So for example Netflix app on the TV will only send 5.1 audio to the "dead-ended" A16, not Dolby Atmos audio.
And of course we DO want Dolby Atmos audio delivered via eARC from TV app to the A16. But in order to make that happen it turns out you MUST ALSO CONNECT a second HDMI cable between one of the HDMI inputs of the A16 and the HDMI-out of the AVR! Even though this HDMI cable has no direct function in delivering eARC audio between TV app and A16, it IS involved in the HDMI handshake initiated by the TV (e.g. Netflix) app in deciding what type of audio and video should be delivered. And apparently the AVR and its Atmos-capable ability is now seen because of that second HDMI cable connecting A16 input to AVR output., and that's all that is needed to satisfy the TV app during the handshake. It will now agree to provide Dolby Atmos audio out via eARC over that HDMI cable going to the A16's HDMI output (even though it is obviously not going any further and on to the AVR).
To repeat: apparently the A16 by itself, "dead-ended" on the one HDMI cable to the TV, does NOT present itself in the HDMI handshake as capable of Dolby Atmos. So only 5.1 audio will offered and delivered out from the TV via eARC to the A16. But if you add that second HDMI cable from any HDMI input on the A16 to the HDMI-out of the AVR, now the TV app WILL agree to send out Dolby Atmos audio via eARC.
==> Even in my yet again newly adjusted source/AVR/A16 cabling configuration that eliminates the now-rejected splitter and instead has the TV connected directly to HDMI1-out of the AVR (to bring back HDMI-CEC along with eARC from TV to AVR), even when moving the HDMI cable to the TV over to the HDMI-out of the A16 to enable eARC audio from TV to the A16 for listening through headphones, it is ALSO NECESSARY TO CONNECT A SECOND HDMI CABLE FROM ANY A16 INPUT TO HDMI-OUT OF THE AVR. It is the "visibility" of the Atmos-capable AVR during the HDMI handshake, through this second HDMI cable connecting A16 to AVR, that tells the TV app it's ok to send Dolby Atmos out via eARC over HDMI, which is by definition to the A16. By itself, "dead-ended". the A16 does NOT provide such "I can accept Dolby Atmos" response in the HDMI handshake.
The primary intended purpose of using the splitter was so that all sources could go directly through the AVR instead of going through the A16 and then out to the AVR. This increases the maximum number of input source devices from 4 (into the A16) up to 7-8 (into the AVR).
It also supports the AVR's abilty to deliver 2Ch-Stereo or 7Ch-Stereo (and other audio processing enhancements) for any AVR-supported speaker configuration, for any source.
It also supports almost all optional audio arrangements with audio either handled (a) by the AVR for speakers, or (b) by the A16 for headphones, and without requiring physical recabling.
And it supports all of the above without requiring that AVR and A16 both always be powered ON even when one or the other form of audio was not theoretically required for that particular listening mode. In particular it REQUIRES that when listening through headphones that the AVR be powered OFF (with its HDMi pass-through feature enabled, in order to deliver multi-channel audio out via HDMI to the A16). And when listening through speakers the A16 should be powered OFF (since it has no purpose).
All this is true, but at the cost of losing HDMI-CEC and eARC audio from TV apps back either to the AVR (for speaker audio) or to the A16 (for headphone audio). After a week or so of tryout I've now decided these costs are too great. The conveniences offered by the splitter where it provides an advantage are just not enough to outweigh the simultaneous loss of the real conveniences of HDMI-CEC. Loss of eARC audio is a fact, but not as much of a loss as HDMI-CEC.
So the splitter is out. I'm back to one HDMI cable going from AVR to TV (or temporarily moved to go from A16 to TV, when eARC audio is desired through headphones).
And by virtue of this latest round of experimenting, I've learned something new about the A16: IT CANNOT BE "DEAD-ENDED" if you want to get Atmos audio via eARC from TV apps.
In other words you cannot just have the one HDMI cable going between HDMI-out of the A16 and the TV, with no other HDMI cable connected to the A16 (i.e. just the TV and A16 are connected together via one HDMI cable, and no other HDMI handshake-visible device is in use or connected through other HDMI cables). Because if you do have the A16 "dead-ended" like this, and only connected to the TV, then it will NOT provide necessary EDID information to tell the TV apps that it is capable of receiving Dolby Atmos audio! So for example Netflix app on the TV will only send 5.1 audio to the "dead-ended" A16, not Dolby Atmos audio.
And of course we DO want Dolby Atmos audio delivered via eARC from TV app to the A16. But in order to make that happen it turns out you MUST ALSO CONNECT a second HDMI cable between one of the HDMI inputs of the A16 and the HDMI-out of the AVR! Even though this HDMI cable has no direct function in delivering eARC audio between TV app and A16, it IS involved in the HDMI handshake initiated by the TV (e.g. Netflix) app in deciding what type of audio and video should be delivered. And apparently the AVR and its Atmos-capable ability is now seen because of that second HDMI cable connecting A16 input to AVR output., and that's all that is needed to satisfy the TV app during the handshake. It will now agree to provide Dolby Atmos audio out via eARC over that HDMI cable going to the A16's HDMI output (even though it is obviously not going any further and on to the AVR).
To repeat: apparently the A16 by itself, "dead-ended" on the one HDMI cable to the TV, does NOT present itself in the HDMI handshake as capable of Dolby Atmos. So only 5.1 audio will offered and delivered out from the TV via eARC to the A16. But if you add that second HDMI cable from any HDMI input on the A16 to the HDMI-out of the AVR, now the TV app WILL agree to send out Dolby Atmos audio via eARC.
==> Even in my yet again newly adjusted source/AVR/A16 cabling configuration that eliminates the now-rejected splitter and instead has the TV connected directly to HDMI1-out of the AVR (to bring back HDMI-CEC along with eARC from TV to AVR), even when moving the HDMI cable to the TV over to the HDMI-out of the A16 to enable eARC audio from TV to the A16 for listening through headphones, it is ALSO NECESSARY TO CONNECT A SECOND HDMI CABLE FROM ANY A16 INPUT TO HDMI-OUT OF THE AVR. It is the "visibility" of the Atmos-capable AVR during the HDMI handshake, through this second HDMI cable connecting A16 to AVR, that tells the TV app it's ok to send Dolby Atmos out via eARC over HDMI, which is by definition to the A16. By itself, "dead-ended". the A16 does NOT provide such "I can accept Dolby Atmos" response in the HDMI handshake.
Last edited:
Rene Lou
Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2014
- Posts
- 50
- Likes
- 65
Hi teacher1000
Yes, I have implemented the full A16 IP commands into a Philips Pronto Professional - works as described in the A16 IP manual. So if you do not get a respond from the A16, then the problem will be most likely not with your A16. I used the A16 IP commands since they became available. They function without problem including with the current A16 firmware.
One thing you have to be aware of: The IP commands do not work as soon as you will start an A16 App (eg: HPEQ with "HP (run)", PRIR measurement with "SPK (run)" or "CAL PRIR Gains"). At the time the A16 loads the App-code, the IP commands will stop working and the A16 will no longer respond to any IP command (you will have to use the IR remote to advance / start the App or to leave the App).
The IP commands are a nice add-on, but are not fully usable at the moment since you can not navigate through the A16 menus with the IP commands as soon as an A16 App has started.
Last edited:
Have you published your Pronto config anywhere?
Rene Lou
Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2014
- Posts
- 50
- Likes
- 65
It is work in progress and the A16 part is just a very little part of my very large Pronto file with several thousand lines of JavaScript code. It's part of my hobby.....
I planned to make a clean copy for the A16 but had not the time so far, so it's just work in progress with some quick&dirty parts.
Nevertheless I uploaded the Pronto file to the Google-Drive for those who have an interest (I made a new folder '6)....'). But be warned, the Pronto file is messy....
The A16 IR commands can be found in the projects components IR database included in the Pronto file. The IP commands are in the JavaScript.
I included all A8 and A16 IR commands and added modified A16 IR commands for repeating buttons (eg: press VU+ or Adjust+ and the A16 scrolls through the VU levels or the menu items very quickly, but not as quickly as with the A8 IR remote control). I also added some A16 IR commands to make faster VU changes. The file has several older parts as well (history) and a lot of other components. A bidirectional IP-interface is included as well for several components. To switch between IR and IP commands, I included a tiny little IR and Ethernet symbol at the top left part of some of the pages with IR/IP capability - press the little symbol and the Pronto switches between IR and IP commands when you press a button.
The A16 camera interface is included as well (to get a real-time copy of the A16 display on the Pronto remote), including a zoom function (press the small A16 display on the Pronto and the A16 display will be zoomed to a near full-screen representation for better readability). For the A16 camera interface to function, you will need an IP camera in front of the A16 display and you will have to include/modify the IP addresses..... And there are two IP addresses for the A16 - since I have two. At the Power home screen (the screen with many 'Revox'-like Power switches incl. red signal lamps), touching the little A16 2U picture changes to a headstand picture - the Pronto A16 IP adress is changed accordingly for either of those two. There are a lot of hidden features I added over time due to lack of Pronto screen space.
There is an activity called 'Main' and in this Main activity, there are some pages starting with 'Smyth'. In addition to those pages, in the Main JavaScript there are several parts starting with 'SVS' or 'Smyth' (eg: on line 6468 ff) and there is some JavaScript to be found on the different pages and on most of the buttons.
There are several bidirectional parts in the script in addition to the A16 (eg: for a Sony VPL projector, a Pioneer Receiver and a Lexicon MC12 processor). I reverse-engineered the Lexicon MC12 EQ filter parameters (RS232 with GC-100 IP adapter) and included the capability to modify all MC12 filters for all channels (7 filters per channel), multiple EQ functions incl. multiple memory banks for different sets of EQ filters for the MC12 as well as multiple memory banks for distances, level and crossover points per channel for the MC12 - some of those functions I use in combination with the A8/A16 Line input. Oppo 203 is included as well in IR and IP commands (incl. a slider to move subtitles quickly up/down - the slider will work with IP only - the Oppo functions can be found in the 'BD' pages of the Main activity).
Especially error handling in the bidirectional parts could be improved - sometimes I have to restart the Pronto since IP is no longer functioning; I haven't found time to correct this (other 'more important' ideas have shown up all the times....).
You can use the Pronto Edit Professional SW (rel 2.4.23, available from remote central) to load, edit and simulate the Pronto xcf-file; there is even a hack available to make the IP functionality available with the Pronto simulator. I use the Pronto simulator often: run the Pronto Edit simulator on a PC, remote connect to the PC desktop with an iPad and zoom the Pronto simulator to full-screen -> the iPad is functioning like a Pronto (just much faster than the Pronto remote, but without hard buttons and without IR capability). To reach the A16 pages on the simulator/Pronto remote, you will have to press either the Pioneer receiver or the Lexicon MC12 image on the left part of the Pronto touch screen for more than 1/2 second.
As I said - it's somewhat messy, but feel free to reuse the parts you like.....
And one more comment: I am neither a programmer nor a JavaScript expert, so please be welcome to update/improve some of the scripts.
Some screen shots from the simulator:
Last edited:
mrtim6
500+ Head-Fier
Well if I receive my preorder #160 in July 2024 it will be 7 years in the waiting… gulp…
Sanctuary
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2011
- Posts
- 498
- Likes
- 134
Well, you can with a lot of persistence I suppose.
Last edited:
esimms86
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2013
- Posts
- 821
- Likes
- 404
I’m sorry to hear that. I wonder if there’s a price difference between buying from Smyth Research vs. Gilles Guerin in France. I don’t have any personal or financial connections with Gilles, however, his customer support is inarguably first rate.
Sanctuary
100+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2011
- Posts
- 498
- Likes
- 134
LMAO, complain on the forums and you shall receive I guess? Finally got a reply again a few minutes ago, and I should be getting my invoice sometime today.
James said it would take around fourteen days for me to receive my A16 as well. But I don't know if that's from the time they ship it off, or including up to that point.
James said it would take around fourteen days for me to receive my A16 as well. But I don't know if that's from the time they ship it off, or including up to that point.
Last edited:
esimms86
500+ Head-Fier
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2013
- Posts
- 821
- Likes
- 404
I’m glad it worked out for you. It used to take less than a week in the pre-Covid days. Now your learning curve is about to skyrocket. Welcome to the club.
edwardsean
Headphoneus Supremus
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2006
- Posts
- 1,854
- Likes
- 1,632
I'm in the same preorder boat, and I'm wondering what to do about it. I just looked at the list of exhibitors for this year's Axpona, and Smyth is not there. It's a long trip for them, but it just would've been encouraging if they were coming. I got my IRs made by them at Axpona, I think, 2017.
The A16 is really important to me, and I'm thinking if I should just pay full price to get one as soon as possible, or try to pick one up used. Any thoughts or insights?
mrtim6
500+ Head-Fier
Probably best to ask the owners for their thoughts regarding paying full price. The only insight is not an insight, Smyth don’t communicate well with their customers. i sincerely hope for an uptick in production their end.
Last edited:
LJG
New Head-Fier
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2009
- Posts
- 9
- Likes
- 10
I am LJG from AVSforum, I expect to have my order shipped out 2/3/22. Very excited to receive this product. I have a pair of HD 800S headphones to pair with the A16. I am trying to understand the proper cable connection between the two. The HD 800 shipped with 6.35, and 4.4 MM connectors. Thanks in advance.
This is the room I will be looking to replicate https://www.acousticfrontiers.com/new-york-dream-home-theater/.
This is the room I will be looking to replicate https://www.acousticfrontiers.com/new-york-dream-home-theater/.
Last edited:
Users who are viewing this thread
