[Got the Shakes]

No, this just normalizes the volumes/gains of speakers (coming from different PRIRs) in one Listening Room. The limit reverb is a separate setting in the Listening room setup.


I just downloaded and inspected the async signals from Thomasphoenix:
The SW channel is band limited to 120 Hz as it seems, so I remembered correctly. These are (of course) the same async signals for the pros I already heard ( the same document for the rooms I saw from May, with the same error, room 38 is there two times. -> I already wrote this to Stephen in May), only difference is that all channels are in one wav file, not one wav file per channel.

You can open the files with Audacity for example and see all tracks/channels.

In the folder for room 25 are two important files: The manual noise track (noise.wav) for setup of the gain/volume of your speaker system (this can be omitted but better to have it) and the Phase Locking track (pll_cal.wav) that is used for aligning the phase between sound system and Realiser. Ah and the level_cal file.
These have to be played before every measurement session. See FW update manuals 1.80 and 1.90 respectively.
And the preamble of course, this is different for every room, it tells the Realiser via those DTMF tones what to measure. But this can now be overwritten with the Overwrite preamble ID function implemented in the last FW 1.91.

The rooms available now to us are a bit inconsistent, some with 12s sweeps and 12s plus overlap, some only with overlap, and so on.

I’m glad you found those two files, because after reading the instructions and then looking through the first couple folders of files, I didn’t see them anywhere. I think I’m going to take a shot at capturing a 5.1 room this weekend and see if it works and if the results are better than when I captured the same room a year back. I would expect it would be since I wouldn’t be moving in and out of the sweet spot disconnecting speakers and whatnot since the AVR only has stereo analog in.

 

[blubliss]

I'm going to try this between the A16 and my new LG OLED48CX which has HDMI 2.1, hoping it's a cheap way to avoid the upgrade shipping and not have to buy an external receiver that has 2.1.

https://thenaudio.com/

 

[sander99]

I'm going to try this between the A16 and my new LG OLED48CX which has HDMI 2.1, hoping it's a cheap way to avoid the upgrade shipping and not have to buy an external receiver that has 2.1.

https://thenaudio.com/

I was just looking for something like that! I didn't know what it is called - or even if something like that existed - so googling for it was tricky.
But I think it is overpriced, due to the laws of supply and demand I guess.

If you buy it I'd like to hear your expriences with it.

 

[blubliss]

I was just looking for something like that! I didn't know what it is called - or even if something like that existed - so googling for it was tricky.
But I think it is overpriced, due to the laws of supply and demand I guess.

If you buy it I'd like to hear your expriences with it.

Sure, I'll report back.

It's way cheaper than a receiver with 2.1 with all the features I don't need.

 

[Got the Shakes]

I'm going to try this between the A16 and my new LG OLED48CX which has HDMI 2.1, hoping it's a cheap way to avoid the upgrade shipping and not have to buy an external receiver that has 2.1.

https://thenaudio.com/

Do you have an A16 with the new board that supports eARC? The firmware that is needed to enable it on the Realiser isn't out yet, but if you do then it makes the SHARC redundant. You could plug your devices into the CX HDMI ports and use eARC from the tv to run audio to the A16. Obviously if you have the older board in the A16 then the setup I proposed wouldn't work.

 

[Litlgi74]

I'm going to try to remeasure my center channel with an actual center speaker versus my full size floor stander...

I have a question about which size should I choose for the center channel.. L or S?

My floor standers have a frequency response of on-axis (0°) ±2 dB from 44 Hz - 22 kH

And my dedicated center channel is on-axis (0°) ±2 dB from 60 Hz - 22 kHz

So which size speaker should I choose for the center channel?

Also I've been looking for the manual and I stumbled across the designation for UF or FF... If my Atmos speakers are in ceiling speakers... Should I leave those two categories (UF, FF) blank,?

 

[audiohobbit]

If you already looked into the manual then you should have noticed the following sentence in the UF/FF chapter (p. 39):
"These labels are not currently used in the SVS algorithm and can be left blank."

This is a setting that does not make any sense with the Realiser. They had to implemt this (as a dummy) to get the Atmos certification from Dolby, those settings do nothing.
Even if you had an upfiring speaker you could still measure it as a normal top channel with the Realiser.

And if you read the rest of the chapter then you will read at many places that this and that setting is not used in the SVS algorithm or not yet etc. I think this is true for all settings in the PRIR sound room EXCEPT the assignment of speaker label and output channel. And the output channel then has nothing to do with the channel assignment when using the PRIR afterwards. ONLY the speaker labels are crucial. This is why this is highlighted in yellow in the chapter.
Path and Gain are not used at the moment, this is written in those chaptes.

The Azi and Elev angles are for information only, that I know for sure, the SVS algorithm does nothing with that info. If you enter 30 deg azimuth but your speaker really is at 60 deg, then you will hear it in the PRIR afterwards at 60 deg, no matter what you entered here. But just to have the info later when creating listening rooms it is good to enter roughly the angles where the speakers have been in the real room.

And for the Large or Small setting here in the PRIR SOUNDROOM SETUP I'm quite sure that this doesn't change anything either. They don't write it explicitly but I can not imagine that it does something here. Only thing imaginable would be to band-limit the sweep when set to small but that would not make any sense.

So leave it at L.

I recommend to bass manege the speaker with a real subwoofer (if you have one) and record it as fullrange.

If not possible then you have to use the Bass management in the Realiser, in the LISTENING ROOM SETUP. Here you can set a crossover frequency and set the (virtual) speakers to large or small, see p. 86 ff.

 

[Litlgi74]

If you already looked into the manual then you should have noticed the following sentence in the UF/FF chapter (p. 39):
"These labels are not currently used in the SVS algorithm and can be left blank."

This is a setting that does not make any sense with the Realiser. They had to implemt this (as a dummy) to get the Atmos certification from Dolby, those settings do nothing.
Even if you had an upfiring speaker you could still measure it as a normal top channel with the Realiser.

And if you read the rest of the chapter then you will read at many places that this and that setting is not used in the SVS algorithm or not yet etc. I think this is true for all settings in the PRIR sound room EXCEPT the assignment of speaker label and output channel. And the output channel then has nothing to do with the channel assignment when using the PRIR afterwards. ONLY the speaker labels are crucial. This is why this is highlighted in yellow in the chapter.
Path and Gain are not used at the moment, this is written in those chaptes.

The Azi and Elev angles are for information only, that I know for sure, the SVS algorithm does nothing with that info. If you enter 30 deg azimuth but your speaker really is at 60 deg, then you will hear it in the PRIR afterwards at 60 deg, no matter what you entered here. But just to have the info later when creating listening rooms it is good to enter roughly the angles where the speakers have been in the real room.

And for the Large or Small setting here in the PRIR SOUNDROOM SETUP I'm quite sure that this doesn't change anything either. They don't write it explicitly but I can not imagine that it does something here. Only thing imaginable would be to band-limit the sweep when set to small but that would not make any sense.

So leave it at L.

I recommend to bass manege the speaker with a real subwoofer (if you have one) and record it as fullrange.

If not possible then you have to use the Bass management in the Realiser, in the LISTENING ROOM SETUP. Here you can set a crossover frequency and set the (virtual) speakers to large or small, see p. 86 ff.

Thanks for the reply...

My initial center speaker channel measurement was a single measurement... Only after the measurement and I put everything away did I realize I forgot to include the speaker size for the calibration... (The speaker size was still sent to small from my last measurement of the top atmos channels) The result of the small speaker PRIR was very interesting to hear... As it left out a good portion of the bass response. I could clearly hear the bass in the left, right, and surround channels...

So I sent everything up for a remeasurement.

Maybe it was just a coincidence... But when I did a speaker calibration of just the center channel... I made two calibration attempts at small and large speaker size... Each calibration gave a different gain value... Not by much but still a difference. 0.02 vs 0.06...

Also, and I'm sure you won't be surprised by it... But my second attempt at a single speaker measurement did produce significant errors in the sound. So I'm going to re-measure using a subwoofer and the center channel.

When you say to record The subwoofer at fullrange... is this what you mean?

Or is there something I have to set up in the A16 as well?

Should I not have set my Atmos speakers to the small speakers size? Or don't you think that matters?

Thanks

 

[audiohobbit]

Not the subwoofer as fullrange. What I meant is to bass manage the center speaker with the subwoofer. If you do this is with an AVR then the crossover is set in the AVR between center and sub (at 80 Hz for example), and then yes the crossover on the sub itself as shown in your picture should be set to the max. value.
So that in the end if you drive your center channel the center speaker plays back everything above the crossover freq and the sub below this freq, so that effectively your center channel is then full range and can be measured as full range by the Realiser so that you don't have to use the bass management in the Realiser (if you did the same for all other channels).

However combining a sub with a speaker in a normal room when made correct isn't that easy. At first one subwoofer in a room will always be heavily affected by room modes. Then the phase between sub and speaker must also be considered. And the relative level between them. So at least the sub should be EQed. For one sweet spot this should not be so hard (if the sub is placed correctly so that there won't be destructive interference at the sweet spot by a room mode because this can't be EQed). Then you would at least get a flat frequency response at the sweet spot. This still leaves the reverb in the bass (and of course the rest of the frequencies) but this can be remedied with the Denoise PRIR function during the measurement or the Limit reverb afterward.

Automatic measurements in AVR like Audyssey should produce a flat freq response if possible but to be really sure and to do it in a better way you should use measuring equipment (calibrated mic and software like Room EQ Wizard) yourself.
If you can't and your measured sub is heavily affected by room modes (booming bass etc.) then maybe the bass management with the Direct Bass setting in the Realiser is the better way to go. I used this with my own measurements with the A8.
However this is a very dry bass without any reverb and people might not be used to that kind of bass. But it's not that hard to test with the Realiser (but with the A16 I've not yet tested it, only used it with the A8.)
If you use direct bass then you have to set the level of the "virtual sub" yourself compared to the rest of your virtual speakers, either by listening to it or by measuring the frequency response of the A16 output.
I'm not sure if the normalize speaker setting will work for Direct Bass, I suppose not.

 

[Litlgi74]

Not the subwoofer as fullrange. What I meant is to bass manage the center speaker with the subwoofer. If you do this is with an AVR then the crossover is set in the AVR between center and sub (at 80 Hz for example), and then yes the crossover on the sub itself as shown in your picture should be set to the max. value.
So that in the end if you drive your center channel the center speaker plays back everything above the crossover freq and the sub below this freq, so that effectively your center channel is then full range and can be measured as full range by the Realiser so that you don't have to use the bass management in the Realiser (if you did the same for all other channels).

However combining a sub with a speaker in a normal room when made correct isn't that easy. At first one subwoofer in a room will always be heavily affected by room modes. Then the phase between sub and speaker must also be considered. And the relative level between them. So at least the sub should be EQed. For one sweet spot this should not be so hard (if the sub is placed correctly so that there won't be destructive interference at the sweet spot by a room mode because this can't be EQed). Then you would at least get a flat frequency response at the sweet spot. This still leaves the reverb in the bass (and of course the rest of the frequencies) but this can be remedied with the Denoise PRIR function during the measurement or the Limit reverb afterward.

Automatic measurements in AVR like Audyssey should produce a flat freq response if possible but to be really sure and to do it in a better way you should use measuring equipment (calibrated mic and software like Room EQ Wizard) yourself.
If you can't and your measured sub is heavily affected by room modes (booming bass etc.) then maybe the bass management with the Direct Bass setting in the Realiser is the better way to go. I used this with my own measurements with the A8.
However this is a very dry bass without any reverb and people might not be used to that kind of bass. But it's not that hard to test with the Realiser (but with the A16 I've not yet tested it, only used it with the A8.)
If you use direct bass then you have to set the level of the "virtual sub" yourself compared to the rest of your virtual speakers, either by listening to it or by measuring the frequency response of the A16 output.
I'm not sure if the normalize speaker setting will work for Direct Bass, I suppose not.

As always... Thank you for the detailed response.

Unfortunately, all of my measurements were made with my speakers and the A16 connected directly to a power amplifier not an AVR... And the subwoofer was hooked directly to the 3.5 mm out to RCA of the A16... So all measurements are based on the calibration setup of the A16 and not any form of room correction.

As I mentioned earlier... I'm very pleased with the results... I'm just trying to get a little more separation and direction from the center channel... So this time around, I'm going to use my actual center channel speaker instead of the main loudspeaker that I used in all of my previous measurements... And since it seems best to measure two speakers instead of one... I've opted to re-measure the subwoofer in addition to the center channel.

 

[castleofargh]

If you already looked into the manual then you should have noticed the following sentence in the UF/FF chapter (p. 39):
"These labels are not currently used in the SVS algorithm and can be left blank."

This is a setting that does not make any sense with the Realiser. They had to implemt this (as a dummy) to get the Atmos certification from Dolby, those settings do nothing.
Even if you had an upfiring speaker you could still measure it as a normal top channel with the Realiser.

And if you read the rest of the chapter then you will read at many places that this and that setting is not used in the SVS algorithm or not yet etc. I think this is true for all settings in the PRIR sound room EXCEPT the assignment of speaker label and output channel. And the output channel then has nothing to do with the channel assignment when using the PRIR afterwards. ONLY the speaker labels are crucial. This is why this is highlighted in yellow in the chapter.
Path and Gain are not used at the moment, this is written in those chaptes.

The Azi and Elev angles are for information only, that I know for sure, the SVS algorithm does nothing with that info. If you enter 30 deg azimuth but your speaker really is at 60 deg, then you will hear it in the PRIR afterwards at 60 deg, no matter what you entered here. But just to have the info later when creating listening rooms it is good to enter roughly the angles where the speakers have been in the real room.

And for the Large or Small setting here in the PRIR SOUNDROOM SETUP I'm quite sure that this doesn't change anything either. They don't write it explicitly but I can not imagine that it does something here. Only thing imaginable would be to band-limit the sweep when set to small but that would not make any sense.

So leave it at L.

I recommend to bass manege the speaker with a real subwoofer (if you have one) and record it as fullrange.

If not possible then you have to use the Bass management in the Realiser, in the LISTENING ROOM SETUP. Here you can set a crossover frequency and set the (virtual) speakers to large or small, see p. 86 ff.

You're right about those angles settings not being used(it's clearly mentioned in the PDF). But it means that the A16 can only handle the right Atmos decoding for the preregistered standards of placement. When in theory(not convinced there is any actual benefit), we could randomly put speakers in the room, have them precisely located and have the Atmos decoding work something out into almost any arbitrary speaker configuration.
Even if Atmos (or the DTS twin) became the one and only audio standard, I would still think that it's objectively more rational to follow some good old standard placement patterns as the guys making the sound tracks will most certainly use one of them.
I guess my point is, there could be a legit use for those variables in the A16 with object based formats, but we typically don't have a reason to care.

About the big or small room, I imagined it was about how long the reverb trail would be in the recording of the PRIR. So that in a small room the impulse could be cut after a while to limit the "bathroom" sort of ambiance or various noises creeping in. While in a big room we need time to let the wave go and come back at least once from far away. Maybe the setting is in fact only useful to record opera houses where the default impulse is maybe not made long enough sometimes? IDK. But if there was a use, I'd expect that.
edit: I can't read.

 

[sander99]

About the big or small room

They were not talking about a big or small room, but a big or small speaker , it is a setting per speaker.
(Normally in an AVR you set speakers to S or L, and bass management will reroute low frequency content from the small speakers to the subwoofer and/or large front speakers, depending on the exact settings.)

 

[castleofargh]

They were not talking about a big or small room, but a big or small speaker , it is a setting per speaker.
(Normally in an AVR you set speakers to S or L, and bass management will reroute low frequency content from the small speakers to the subwoofer and/or large front speakers, depending on the exact settings.)

aaarrrggghhhhhhhh... A big speaker is what I now need to go hide behind.

 

[audiohobbit]

They were not talking about a big or small room, but a big or small speaker , it is a setting per speaker.
(Normally in an AVR you set speakers to S or L, and bass management will reroute low frequency content from the small speakers to the subwoofer and/or large front speakers, depending on the exact settings.)

Thanks, exactly. But this is done in the Realiser when setting up the Listening Room from existing PRIRs, not during PRIR recording. I would always let this setting on L.
I forgot one thing in the PRIR Sound room setup: HPF (p.39) High Pass Filter, this is not used they say in the manual, and this would refer to the L or S setting I think.
As I said this is done in the setup of the Listening Room.

And Litlgi74 should do this at least for his center speaker then, since it runs only to 60 Hz down. Could also do this for the mains since 44 Hz is a bit high esp. for movies where considerable low bass could also be on the normal channels not only the LFE, and also fur music maybe a benefit. For normal music a -3 dB point of about 30 Hz should be sufficient.


The duration of the impulse response incl. reverb is at the moment fixed to 750 ms afaik.

You're right about those angles settings not being used(it's clearly mentioned in the PDF). But it means that the A16 can only handle the right Atmos decoding for the preregistered standards of placement. When in theory(not convinced there is any actual benefit), we could randomly put speakers in the room, have them precisely located and have the Atmos decoding work something out into almost any arbitrary speaker configuration.
Even if Atmos (or the DTS twin) became the one and only audio standard, I would still think that it's objectively more rational to follow some good old standard placement patterns as the guys making the sound tracks will most certainly use one of them.
I guess my point is, there could be a legit use for those variables in the A16 with object based formats, but we typically don't have a reason to care.

Wat you refer to is called remapping. Where you can have speakers in more or less arbitrary locations and you tell the processor where they are etc.
This is something that to my knowledge only the Trinnov processors can do. Maybe one or two others I don't know but mainly Trinnov. With their special microphone array th processor even can detect the speaker positions itself.
I think this needs a lot of CPU power, therefore the Trinnovs are basically PCs afaik (and cost a little bit more than a Realiser. About 10.000 or 20.000 currency units more ...)
Funny thing: There's a 16 and 32 channel version, it's called Altitude 16 (or 32) and is in many cases also just referred to as "A16"...

All other AVRs, processors etc. I know do work with fixed channel and speaker layouts.
However there are no definitive angles specified by Dolby. They just give wide ranges in their whitepapers.
I already asked Stephen if the decoder presumes certain angles, and if I know them I can put the speakers exactly there for measurements, but he said no there are no specific angles programmed in the decoder. Just put the speakers where Dolby tells in the whitepaper. And these are large ranges, for the ceiling speakers for example.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Feb 15 2017 Preorder customer. Any idea where we are in releases of the A16 unit? Just wondering how much longer...

I'll probably be the last kickstarter backer to receiver their unit (I'm #354), so once I get mine they'll likely be finished with backers and will move on to pre-orders.