[squirt]

and, so, ownership is now permanent?
maybe permanent maybe not. all i'm concerned is that i as long as i'm the original owner that i have proof of ownership in case something were to happen to it. if i were to sell it at some point, it's not my concern what good the certificate is or isn't to any succeeding owner(s) and i very seriously doubt a buyer is going to turn down buying a used HD-800 just because the certificate has someone else's name on it. i'm sure they have enough sense to realize they are buying something that had a previous owner. they can do anything they want with the certificate assuming they want it.

you have a concern that sennheiser is up to something fishy by not including the graph data inside the box. realistically if sennheiser were up to something fishy concerning the graph data they could just as easily do what ever fishy-ness before shipping the headphone and include it in the box. they chose to include the graph on the ownership cirtificate for their own reasons but i don't sense any evil intent on their part.

i think it would be more effective to contact sennheiser direct with your concerns and questions. it's possible they may take them to heart and include the graphs in the box and send out a certificate of ownership latter with or without the graph. this is the first headphone i've owned that provided a graph or certificate so i suspect this is new territory for sennheiser and they may be open to suggestions on how to improve they way they do things.

 

[IPodPJ]

I think some of you are being ridiculous. Sennheiser did a nice thing by customizing a certificate but that's not good enough for you, so obviously they are trying to pull a fast one over on us, right? Sennheiser has said they will repair all the spring issues and replace the dust covers with new ones in the near future. What's the problem here? Or do you just like whining about insignificant issues that have nothing AT ALL to do with the performance of your HD800. Believe me, I'm sure there are plenty of people here that would be glad to take them off your hands for you, and you can keep your own certificate!

Yes, they screwed up over the 6 month period before they were finally released. It was wrong and they had no excuse not to directly come to us and tell us why. I was plenty pissed and ready to cancel my order. BUT THE HEADPHONES ARE HERE NOW AND THEY SOUND GREAT, so why whine about a piece of paper that was customized just for you, to add a level of uniqueness to your statement-level product? You know how ridiculous that sounds?

I'm sure Sennheiser would be more than happy to print another certificate for you without your name on it if it will quell your grievance.

 

[feifan]

 

[shamu144]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have to agree. I don't think anyone bought the headphones based on the graph or were "fooled" by the graph. The headphones were bought for the sound and the graphs are just thrown in as an extra.

I would guess those graphs are only the result of the long Quality Control process that every HD800 goes through, requiring the involvment of no more than 16 of their best engineers. At best, that mean they just printed out the results in a nice and readible format and sent it to the end customers.

I certainly wouldn't use this graph to determine any sonic deviations or preferences, but only to confirm MY HD800 were thoroughly measured and tested within the tolerances set (QC approved).

 

[Snacks]

I'm more interested in the model series number than the frequency chart(s), but that's me. I wasn't going to order my charts; I'm more concerned with how they sound in my setup, not to say that others aren't--just saying.

How audiophile is that?!

 

[b0dhi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^Fletcher and Munson curves might be the ones they are using. There are loads of equal loudness curves to take as reference. However it still strikes me that the graph only shows till 12k instead of 16k or 20k...

I'm more suspicious about the fact that it doesn't go below 100hz. I suspect the reason for this is that once you get to about 30-40hz, open headphones have extreme difficulty reproducing the bass required to remain in line with the equal-loudness curves. Reproducing 100hz with enough volume is easy. 30hz on the other hand is hard, especially for open headphones. I suspect if Senn showed these deeper bass regions on their graph, the flat line would slump severely below 50hz.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snacks /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm more interested in the model series number than the frequency chart(s), but that's me. I wasn't going to order my charts; I'm more concerned with how they sound in my setup, not to say that others aren't--just saying. How audiophile is that?!

According to Keith Howard ("Between the Ears: The Art and Science of Measuring Headphones," Stereophile, Aug. 2008), your approach makes sense. Referring to his method of assessing "headphones in the circumstances most favorable to them," Howard says that the customer's results, with different equipment, may not replicate his own. He says, "It is manifestly unacceptable that a customer should select a pair of headphones by careful listening at a retailer, only to experience a quite different tonal balance at home due to a different source impedance. As things stand now, to ensure consistent results, headphones and headphone amplifiers need to be considered as a package."

Howard's point is that equipment such as amplifiers impacts headphone SQ, and we may not hear what he hears because of variations in equipment.

Howard concludes, "All told, measuring headphones is a challenge very different from measuring loudspeakers, but it encompasses at least as many mysteries. Much of a headphone's sound quality clearly resides in its frequency response, but what that response should look like remains unclear. I'm hoping that amassing measurements and comparing them with subjective assessments [emphasis added] will eventually bring enlightenment."

His point is that FRs alone don't tell us about the quality of sound. In fact, we need our human ears to determine the nature of that quality.

Howard says that, in measuring headphones, we have two options: free-field or FF responses and diffuse-field or DF responses. He says, "From the point of view of those who measure headphones, then, there is no hope of being able to apply a universally accepted correction to generate a 'flat is correct' response. The best we can do is apply both FF and DF corrections and hope to learn by experience which, if either, truly correlates with the best subjective performance." [emphasis added]

Again, Howard acknowledges the importance of the listener, the "subjective performance," to ultimately make sense of the numbers.

 

[haloxt]

You are completely disconnected from reality, linuxworks.

 

[linuxworks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haloxt /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are completely disconnected from reality, linuxworks.

nice observation.

if, by that, you mean I don't drink the koolaid, then yes. that's correct. I have not drunk the kool-aid and don't see value in being marketed to to this level.

 

[raccoon]

The reason why it's not in the box is because they want you to register your headphones and this is an incentive.

 

[haloxt]

linuxworks, there's a million reasons not to include the graph in the box and to send it over the mail. The stupid arguments you are bringing up are so stupid I have no choice but to say you're out of your mind.

 

[brat]

....

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shamu144 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would guess those graphs are only the result of the long Quality Control process that every HD800 goes through, requiring the involvment of no more than 16 of their best engineers. At best, that mean they just printed out the results in a nice and readible format and sent it to the end customers. I certainly wouldn't use this graph to determine any sonic deviations or preferences, but only to confirm MY HD800 were thoroughly measured and tested within the tolerances set (QC approved).

Notice their quote states "requiring the involvement of NO MORE THAN 16 of their best engineers" which could mean 1 in every case while giving the perception that each headphone has a team of super audio engineers doing rigorous tests on each phone.

- marketing is marketing, and Sennheisser is no different than any other company in that respect. I don't see that as anything bad. It's up to the consumer to sift through all that and figure out the facts.

Some will buy everything Sennheisser says. Some will realize it's marketing and figure it's business as usual, and some will be turned off by Sennheisser for insulting their intelligence. As consumers or possible customers we all have the right to feel how we do, and no one should be put down or called crazy or "out of their mind" for their reaction.

I think you nailed it! the graph just shows the QC that the HD800s went through which is not a bad thing at all. I think Grado could use some of that especially with the PS-1000 price tag.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by robm321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Notice their quote states "requiring the involvement of NO MORE THAN 16 of their best engineers" which could mean 1 in every case while giving the perception that each headphone has a team of super audio engineers doing rigorous tests on each phone. - marketing is marketing, and Sennheisser is no different than any other company in that respect. I don't see that as anything bad. It's up to the consumer to sift through all that and figure out the facts. Some will buy everything Sennheisser says. Some will realize it's marketing and figure it's business as usual, and some will be turned off by Sennheisser for insulting their intelligence. As consumers or possible customers we all have the right to feel how we do, and no one should be put down or called crazy or "out of their mind" for their reaction. I think you nailed it! the graph just shows the QC that the HD800s went through which is not a bad thing at all. I think Grado could use some of that especially with the PS-1000 price tag.

"No fewer than" -- read it again.

 

[Snacks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan /img/forum/go_quote.gif According to Keith Howard ("Between the Ears: The Art and Science of Measuring Headphones," Stereophile, Aug. 2008), your approach makes sense. Referring to his method of assessing "headphones in the circumstances most favorable to them," Howard says that the customer's results, with different equipment, may not replicate his own. He says, "It is manifestly unacceptable that a customer should select a pair of headphones by careful listening at a retailer, only to experience a quite different tonal balance at home due to a different source impedance. As things stand now, to ensure consistent results, headphones and headphone amplifiers need to be considered as a package." Howard's point is that equipment such as amplifiers impacts headphone SQ, and we may not hear what he hears because of variations in equipment. Howard concludes, "All told, measuring headphones is a challenge very different from measuring loudspeakers, but it encompasses at least as many mysteries. Much of a headphone's sound quality clearly resides in its frequency response, but what that response should look like remains unclear. I'm hoping that amassing measurements and comparing them with subjective assessments [emphasis added] will eventually bring enlightenment." His point is that FRs alone don't tell us about the quality of sound. In fact, we need our human ears to determine the nature of that quality. Howard says that, in measuring headphones, we have two options: free-field or FF responses and diffuse-field or DF responses. He says, "From the point of view of those who measure headphones, then, there is no hope of being able to apply a universally accepted correction to generate a 'flat is correct' response. The best we can do is apply both FF and DF corrections and hope to learn by experience which, if either, truly correlates with the best subjective performance." [emphasis added] Again, Howard acknowledges the importance of the listener, the "subjective performance," to ultimately make sense of the numbers.

Thanks feifan, you took the words right out of my mouth; I couldn't have said it better! The equipment that it takes...I would love it if Sennheiser recommended an ideal setup to experience the sound they set out to achieve.

The different components that we throw in the mix, i.e., amps, sources, DAC, cables, etc., all effect our change the sound to our individual liking. However, I wouldn't mind if a manufacturer went as far as recommending a complete setup to experience what the detail as their ideal sound. That would be interesting.

It is stated on the HD 800 package that for better results an headphone amp could be used, but which one?