Sennheiser HD650 & Massdrop HD6XX Impressions Thread
Feb 25, 2015 at 8:45 AM Post #23,071 of 46,499
A blob might have been overstating things I guess. On at least one live recording of Jeff Buckley, if I use my HD-800s out of the FiiO X5 (or with the HD600 and HD650 back when I owned them, with amps of differing quality) it sounds like I'm at the back of the audience, with everything happening in front of me. Out of the Schiit Valhalla or the more expensive amps or DAPs I have here, it sounds like I'm in the middle of the audience. If you happen across someone with an X5 at least (I haven't tested my iDevices recently with the HD-800s) then I suggest comparing if you can, with suitable music.
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 8:56 AM Post #23,072 of 46,499
  A blob might have been overstating things I guess. On at least one live recording of Jeff Buckley, if I use my HD-800s out of the FiiO X5 (or with the HD600 and HD650 back when I owned them, with amps of differing quality) it sounds like I'm at the back of the audience, with everything happening in front of me. Out of the Schiit Valhalla or the more expensive amps or DAPs I have here, it sounds like I'm in the middle of the audience. If you happen across someone with an X5 at least (I haven't tested my iDevices recently with the HD-800s) then I suggest comparing if you can, with suitable music.

 
I have to ask...are you saying that the x5 would drive the hd650 and even hd800 reasonably well. I have an x5 coming in today so I'm curious about what you think. 
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 9:04 AM Post #23,073 of 46,499
 
  A blob might have been overstating things I guess. On at least one live recording of Jeff Buckley, if I use my HD-800s out of the FiiO X5 (or with the HD600 and HD650 back when I owned them, with amps of differing quality) it sounds like I'm at the back of the audience, with everything happening in front of me. Out of the Schiit Valhalla or the more expensive amps or DAPs I have here, it sounds like I'm in the middle of the audience. If you happen across someone with an X5 at least (I haven't tested my iDevices recently with the HD-800s) then I suggest comparing if you can, with suitable music.

 
I have to ask...are you saying that the x5 would drive the hd650 and even hd800 reasonably well. I have an x5 coming in today so I'm curious about what you think. 

 
Not really. I think the X5 is a nice IEM DAP, but fairly poor with full-sized headphones. That is quite often I think why people buy it with the E12 (?) amp.
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 9:10 AM Post #23,074 of 46,499
 
  If you play this back through, say, an iPhone or FiiO X5 and the HD650s you'll get the sound seeming to be just a blob in the middle, as both devices can't generate enough voltage swing for the headphones. On the other end of the scale, with a good amp you'll get a good, wide soundstage (or maybe "headstage") impression. As the quality of the gear improves, each instrument seems to have a more precise place in the stereo "space". That's what I've discovered.
   



  Aside from that, the particular frequency response of a pair of headphones will affect our perception of the soundstage as our brain interprets the strength of different frequencies as indicators of the distance of sounds, which is why, crazy as it may sound, you can talk about "soundstage" even with IEMs, as you can fake the impression of it by tweaking the frequency response. It's quite a fascinating topic.

 



I'm gonna have a shot at clearing-up this soundstage issue once and for all.


I simply can't see how the X5 or for that matter an iPhone would turn the soundstage of the HD650 into a "blob" (as you call it). That simply can't be. I did the test today with an HD650. I've deliberately used an iPOD Nano with multiple different headphones and there was no deleterious affect whatsoever on the soundstage! The soundstage was completely in tact, wide and spacious imaging was prevalent, because actually the iPod has a very neutral and 'detailed' DAC from what i can hear, thus proving my point in my previous post, a detailed DAC and headphone will preserve the soundstage by default, so your example or understanding of what gear can impact on soundstage doesn't make sense to me.

The only thing i can see which might be affected is the 'PRAT' of the headphone due to the iPhone or iPOD not having enough power to drive the HD650 properly, thus affecting 'Pace' 'Rhythm' and 'Timing' (PRaT), which is what you alluded to when mentioning the result of the powerful Tube Amp giving the "Swing", and therefore it retained the stereo-phase of the frequencies and subsequently the soundstage, but i will reiterate based on what i know... there is not a headphone on the planet that can give a soundstage 'beyond' what is in the original song; however, one way a headphone might give a 'pseudo' impression of better soundstage compared to other headphones is the 'tuning' of the driver (as you mentioned about the frequency response), when they add or detract EQ during the tuning, they can for example easily boost anywhere from around the 3.5kHz mark upward, and this would give a false impression of 'air', which is exactly what we do during the Mastering of a music track by using a High-Shelf EQ, but in the case of headphone-tuning, these companies can to some extent inadvertently create an 'artificial' or 'pseudo' sense of what might be deemed soundstage, but really this can be a 'quasi' sense of better soundstage, and only in comparison to another headphone which might be more veiled and lack air in the top-end due to its tuning by the manufacturer. Why do i say this? Because as a producer i listen intently for many hours week after week inside songs during production, intricate details affecting the soundstage, labouring to build the soundstage into the song during what is called the "Mixing phase" of production, thus i am intimately acquainted with what it is that creates soundstage in any song, and i can tell you that this is created solely by use of "Panning" and two effects plugins - Delay (aka Echo) and "Reverb" - or in the case of Orchestral music the space in which it is recorded, which again is actually the "Reverb".

 
I don't quite get this post.  In the end, isn't a 'false' or 'pseudo' impression of better soundstage not the same thing as better soundstage?  After all, what other than our brains, is telling us that it's better?  As you said yourself, it's impossible for any headphone on the planet to give a soundstage 'beyond' that of the original recording... So it sounds like the only method to give users a perceived sense of better soundstage would be to make alterations that give the false or pseudo impression of a better soundstage.
 
Listening to my HD650 straight out of the iPod still sounds good to me, but I certainly witness that perceived improvement in the soundstage when I pair it with the NAD M51 and Zana Deux.  Even if the soundstage isn't really better, my brain is telling me that what I am hearing makes the soundstage better, and therefore pulling more potential out of a pair of headphones (even if it is just sheer trickery).
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 9:27 AM Post #23,075 of 46,499
   
Not really. I think the X5 is a nice IEM DAP, but fairly poor with full-sized headphones. That is quite often I think why people buy it with the E12 (?) amp.

 
Okay, thanks. I guess I misunderstood you but just wanted some clarification. I'm looking to add the e12 or e12a to drive my hd650 when I'm away from home. 
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 9:49 AM Post #23,076 of 46,499
   
Not really. I think the X5 is a nice IEM DAP, but fairly poor with full-sized headphones. That is quite often I think why people buy it with the E12 (?) amp.


I had a chance to listen to someone else's (@howdy) X5 + E12 this weekend and I was very impressed - great sound with both my HD-650s and his HE-400i (IIRC the model number).
 
The sound stage was amaze-balls ... just kidding. 
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Feb 25, 2015 at 9:55 AM Post #23,077 of 46,499
 
I don't quite get this post.  In the end, isn't a 'false' or 'pseudo' impression of better soundstage not the same thing as better soundstage?  After all, what other than our brains, is telling us that it's better?  As you said yourself, it's impossible for any headphone on the planet to give a soundstage 'beyond' that of the original recording... So it sounds like the only method to give users a perceived sense of better soundstage would be to make alterations that give the false or pseudo impression of a better soundstage.
 
Listening to my HD650 straight out of the iPod still sounds good to me, but I certainly witness that perceived improvement in the soundstage when I pair it with the NAD M51 and Zana Deux.  Even if the soundstage isn't really better, my brain is telling me that what I am hearing makes the soundstage better, and therefore pulling more potential out of a pair of headphones (even if it is just sheer trickery).

 



I take your point. However, i will mention that you are right in saying "Trickery". Why do i say this? Because to reiterate, the trickery is EQ tuning on the part of the manufacturer of the headphone. Like as if you were to take a fine priceless painting and start making some minor alterations to it with your own paint, someone might say "Better" or another person might say "Worse", but in reality it's merely 'different' than the original, and neither better or worse; the soundstage has merely been altered. And keep in mind that this so-called better soundstage is all in the context of 'comparing' it with a headphone that has a deficient soundstage due to a veiled sound, so the former headphone only superficially appears to be better. I will repeat adamantly, it is 'impossible' for a headphone to create a better soundstage than what is in the original song.

Have you ever noticed why some headphones 'seem' to have slightly better soundstage and all the while lacking somewhere else in the sonic performance? That's because the EQ plot used in the tuning is giving a type of wow-factor while actually altering the original sonic signature of the song, that's why all the different headphones aren't lining-up with each other. The tuning evidently robs Peter to pay Paul so to speak, you haven't really gained anything, in essence you lose every time because the original performance of the song has merely been altered.



Currawong said: "A blob might have been overstating things I guess. On at least one live recording of Jeff Buckley, if I use my HD-800s out of the FiiO X5 (or with the HD600 and HD650 back when I owned them, with amps of differing quality) it sounds like I'm at the back of the audience, with everything happening in front of me. Out of the Schiit Valhalla or the more expensive amps or DAPs I have here, it sounds like I'm in the middle of the audience."


My response... you would have to admit that this same phenomena you mention is also 'inherent' in many headphones 'regardless' of DAC/Amp used. This can easily be down to the physical size of the driver and the distance of it in relation to the ear, correct?

Thus many times it can actually be due to the 'physical' characteristics of the actual headphone itself.

But in your case, different DACs, same headphone, this can be down to the accuracy of the DAC/Amp. I did say before that if the DAC is conveying 'all' the 'details' correctly, then this will affect the soundstage due to transferring the full extent of the frequencies in the song and correctly preserving the nuances and subtleties of the reverb, but also combine that with better presentation of stereo-phase coherency, overall sonic accuracy, and PRAT, and this can easily explain the difference you are hearing. All this proves is that better DACs can better preserve the PRAT and soundstage due to the sonic accuracy of the DAC/Amp, thus explaining the phenomena you mention, especially if that phenomena is not quite as extreme as your description might infer.
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 9:58 AM Post #23,078 of 46,499
 
Okay, thanks. I guess I misunderstood you but just wanted some clarification. I'm looking to add the e12 or e12a to drive my hd650 when I'm away from home. 

 



I have an 'as new' E12 if you want it cheaper than the new price. I've only charged it about 5 times and it's in flawless condition. Someone else in America bought my FiiO E17K today too. PM me if you're interested.
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 3:17 PM Post #23,079 of 46,499
Anyone else ever have a problem with a squeaky headband? Whenever I swivel the right ear cup left and right it squeakes, and it feels looser. It barely started happening today.


Would you guys know if it's okay to use some kind of lubricant for this? It appears the plastic part on the horizontal ear pad swivel is contacting the headband metal too hard causing the plastic too squeak. I'm not sure what could have caused this too happen.
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 3:59 PM Post #23,081 of 46,499
My 650's do the same.
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 4:21 PM Post #23,082 of 46,499

Today I decided to buy them again after having sold them in 2013. I will receive them on Friday. Then I can see which Fiio E12 version or Meier Stepdance drives them best. I will order me a 1.5 m/3.5 mm  cable from the same chinese guy that sold me the superb cable for my HD700.
 
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Feb 25, 2015 at 5:58 PM Post #23,084 of 46,499
Mines don't squeak as such but they're not smooth. I'd be reluctant to apply any kind of lubricant in case of collateral damage. I might be tempted to try rubbing some soap in there.
 
Feb 25, 2015 at 7:55 PM Post #23,085 of 46,499
Would you guys know if it's okay to use some kind of lubricant for this? It appears the plastic part on the horizontal ear pad swivel is contacting the headband metal too hard causing the plastic too squeak. I'm not sure what could have caused this too happen.

I had the same problem but constant use eventually loosens them up.  You don't need to do anything special with them, except use them.  Eventually the stiffness works itself out and they become quiet.  By the way I also experienced squeaking noises coming from the pads but continual use had them settle in nicely too.
 

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