[Krutsch]

  Thanks. I'm asking since I've already owned the E18 and am thinking to get the HD650 sometime this year. I was also looking through this thread some and noticed no one brought this desktop amp up:
 
NuForce Icon HDP:
 
https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=26&Itemid=189/
 
Anyone with any impressions of this combo'ed with the HD650?

 
I have the NuForce Icon HDP + LPS-1 (their linear power supply). I think it was a great value, as an all-in-one desktop DAC/amp solution, a few years ago.
 
Actually drives the HD-650 pretty well and scales nicely with a different DAC (I still like the SS amp section; the DAC section, not so much).
 
That said, it's now on my desk at work, pulling duty with a Senn HD-598, using my Samsung Note 4 as a digital source.
 
There are better alternatives out there, in today's market, as suggested repeatedly in this thread (Schiit Audio, O2, et al.).

 

[lawrecedent]

The Fiio E18 can drive the HD650? :basshead:

It sure can, not to 100% of their capability obviously but they still sound super sweet and can be driven far beyond comfortable listening levels.

 

[DDDamian]

It sure can, not to 100% of their capability obviously but they still sound super sweet and can be driven far beyond comfortable listening levels.

Can vouch the same for the similar E17.

 

[DDDamian]

I went from the O2 to the Ember and everything improved, right across the board. I've since had the opportunity to compare the Ember to the Polaris and while the Polaris is good (better than the O2) the Ember is fabulous.

There's more air in the treble registers, the mids are even more luscious & the bass takes on real presence and weight. Superb!

Contender for the next wallet-dipper thanks for sharing!

 

[MattTCG]

Better DAP for the 650...dx90 or x5...anyone care to comment?

 

[urob]

Hi, I am new here, so the question is perhaps a bit stupid. But I was trying to search for this and couldn't really get a good answer. I was wondering if there are some objective metrics for what makes a soundstage large vs. small. Specifically, I am running the hd650 on a v100 and I feel the music playing perhaps 5cm to the left/right of my ears and barely to the front. If I push the phones to the front (so that the back of my ears starts to bend forward), the music starts to shift more to the front, too, but details suffer at the same time. Compared to speakers, I was a bit underwhelmed by the width and depth (otherwise I really love the combination) But perhaps that is normal, hence the question. It would be great, if someone could share his/her experience how much cm in the space around the head would be large for the hd650. (Also, my amp is still burning in, so perhaps it will open up a bit?)

 

[skingg]

 

I almost bought one of those but went for the O2 in the end. I don't regret it as I'm not a fan of some of NuForce's business practices. If you're looking for a desktop amp rather than a portable to be used with the 650 I can recommend the Project Polaris & the Project Ember. The Ember in particular is spectacular and single-handedly rekindled my faith in this hobby. I'm sure there are even better options but I haven't heard them.

Something about NuForce's business practice I should know of?

 
I have the NuForce Icon HDP + LPS-1 (their linear power supply). I think it was a great value, as an all-in-one desktop DAC/amp solution, a few years ago.


Actually drives the HD-650 pretty well and scales nicely with a different DAC (I still like the SS amp section; the DAC section, not so much). That said, it's now on my desk at work, pulling duty with a Senn HD-598, using my Samsung Note 4 as a digital source. There are better alternatives out there, in today's market, as suggested repeatedly in this thread (Schiit Audio, O2, et al.).

Is the LPS-1 compulsory should I go with the Icon HDP?

It sure can, not to 100% of their capability obviously but they still sound super sweet and can be driven far beyond comfortable listening levels.

 
Can vouch the same for the similar E17.

Thanks!


Well I'll have to make do with what Hong Kong has since I may be making a trip there sometime this year and so far I've only manage to source four pages of amps from this store:


http://www.mingo-hmw.com/home/category.php?page=1&category=38&keywords=&sort=goods_id&order=DESC&cat=38&brand=0&price_min=0&price_max=0&filter_attr=0&display=list


Budget range would probably be in the HDP Icon series range. Won't be anytime soon but better to prep now before dropping the dough.

 

[Billheiser]

Hi, I am new here, so the question is perhaps a bit stupid. But I was trying to search for this and couldn't really get a good answer. I was wondering if there are some objective metrics for what makes a soundstage large vs. small. Specifically, I am running the hd650 on a v100 and I feel the music playing perhaps 5cm to the left/right of my ears and barely to the front. If I push the phones to the front (so that the back of my ears starts to bend forward), the music starts to shift more to the front, too, but details suffer at the same time. Compared to speakers, I was a bit underwhelmed by the width and depth (otherwise I really love the combination) But perhaps that is normal, hence the question. It would be great, if someone could share his/her experience how much cm in the space around the head would be large for the hd650. (Also, my amp is still burning in, so perhaps it will open up a bit?)

I think there are no really objective metrics for soundstage size. Perceived aoundstage in headphones is different than speakers. And it's an illusion - that's NOT to say it's not real. Stereo is also an illusion, and of course it is real too.
People will hear soundstage in somewhat different ways. People can often agree that headphone X does it better than headphone Y, but it would be hard to find any consensus on the actual size, in cm or m or miles, of a given soundstage.

 

[Digital7]

Hi, I am new here, so the question is perhaps a bit stupid. But I was trying to search for this and couldn't really get a good answer. I was wondering if there are some objective metrics for what makes a soundstage large vs. small. Specifically, I am running the hd650 on a v100 and I feel the music playing perhaps 5cm to the left/right of my ears and barely to the front. If I push the phones to the front (so that the back of my ears starts to bend forward), the music starts to shift more to the front, too, but details suffer at the same time. Compared to speakers, I was a bit underwhelmed by the width and depth (otherwise I really love the combination) But perhaps that is normal, hence the question. It would be great, if someone could share his/her experience how much cm in the space around the head would be large for the hd650. (Also, my amp is still burning in, so perhaps it will open up a bit?)

 
 
My take on the subject... I say that soundstage can be affected (or facilitated) by the combination of the DAC and headphone together as a pair. So, if the headphone has a veiled sound-signature, then that certainly would give the impression of a smaller soundstage. You asked a good question, because really one earphone is on the right-ear and one on the left, and thus by default you will already have 95% of the soundstage inherent in the song, but if the headphone is lacking detail and displaying to much midrange and not enough transparency, then that would tend to give the 'impression' of a boxy tone, and consequently an impression of a smaller soundstage. Therefore i say that any headphone which displays all the details in the song will automatically have correct soundstage. There's no way any headphone can give an impression of soundstage beyond what is already in the song; what i mean is this... I myself am a music producer and deal with this issue in every mix while the song is being produced, so from a producers standpoint, the soundstage is created 'in the mix' of the actual song, rather than by the headphone, this all down to panning of individual instruments in the song and the inherent stereo-spread of any sounds like synth-pads etc, but also the types of Reverb or Delay (i.e Echo effect) used on individual elements in the song. But, as i mentioned, if the headphone has a veiled boxy-sound (or lack of detail and transparency) then this would detract from the original soundstage inherent in the song. But also if the DAC is having similar problems as the headphone with anomalies in the sound signature and fails to convey details in the sound, then again this would affect the impression of soundstage to some degree also. Therefore the moral of the story is this... the more detailed the DAC and headphone are, the more chance you have of hearing the actual soundstage built into the song by the producer. 

 

[Solrighal]

That's not at all what I consider sound-stage to be. You seem to be talking about stereo separation rather than an actual stage, which is how I see sound-stage. For instance, my Q701 has a very wide sound-stage & is very good at reproducing full orchestras. On the other hand the Q is not so good at providing a solid central focus to the sound, which can be good for folk, jazz & more intimate music. That's where the HD 650 comes in. Both have the same degree of separation but the Senn's are more centrally focused as compared to the Q's.
 
Of course I could be wrong.

 

[DDDamian]

  Better DAP for the 650...dx90 or x5...anyone care to comment?

I don't have a DX90 but will say the X5 sounds wonderful with the 650 in terms of the DAC. For most cans the amp section is very powerful and all you'll need. For the higher-impedance 650's you will get good sound but not quite all you should. At higher volumes it will start to sound strained and a bit artificial on the highs.
 
This will almost certainly apply to the dx90 as well, based purely on specs. I did a lot of research here before picking the X5 over the DX90 and there are fans for both, but the consensus was for the X5 based on power and capacity. As always there are proponents for each.
 
I think the 650's really need the added boost of a more powerful amp than either of those two DAP's carry onboard which is why I have the E12 stacked. It opens everything up. Without it the 650's sound either veiled (lower volumes) or strained with a very narrow band for the sweet-spot in between. The extra juice widens than band considerably.

 

[MattTCG]

  I don't have a DX90 but will say the X5 sounds wonderful with the 650 in terms of the DAC. For most cans the amp section is very powerful and all you'll need. For the higher-impedance 650's you will get good sound but not quite all you should. At higher volumes it will start to sound strained and a bit artificial on the highs.
 
This will almost certainly apply to the dx90 as well, based purely on specs. I did a lot of research here before picking the X5 over the DX90 and there are fans for both, but the consensus was for the X5 based on power and capacity. As always there are proponents for each.
 
I think the 650's really need the added boost of a more powerful amp than either of those two DAP's carry onboard which is why I have the E12 stacked. It opens everything up. Without it the 650's sound either veiled (lower volumes) or strained with a very narrow band for the sweet-spot in between. The extra juice widens than band considerably.

 
I appreciate that you took the time to share this. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the x5 yesterday, so I guess I was reading your mind. I chose it essentially for the reasons that you described. The x5 will be my transportable rig for around the house and getting away from the computer. I will still continue to use the BHC as the primary amp for the 650. 

 

[DDDamian]

Re: Soundstage
 
I think there's three things going on here:
 
1) the essentials of the perceived soundstage are in the recording. It either succeeds or fails in capturing that wider environment. This could be a concert hall, a church or a small jazz venue. A lot has to do with the capture and timing of early and late reflections. A famous example would be the Cowboy Junkies - Trinity or Trinity Revisited where the dimensions of Trinity Church in Toronto can be almost felt in the recording. In artificial environments as with most studio recordings it;s a mix of effects such as panning and reverb that simulate the venue and reflections. If it's not there in the recording you can't create it later with the exception of point 3).
 
2) the audio path must allow these sometimes subtle cues through. The better and more transparent the audio chain the less these recorded details are lost. Many of these cues are subtle and time-based (reflections/reverb) (air/seperation). Compression whether in the mix or in compression techniques such as MP3 can easily destroy them, whereas the hi-def recordings we love (see 2L recordings for example) can easily contain them. DACs and amps can veil them as can cans. This is part of the equipment nirvana we are all seeking, and the reason why hi-def recordings and well-recorded, high dynamic range recordings stand out.
 
3) the output transducer plays a role. Open cans like the 650 should naturally reproduce a wider soundstage than closed cans. Do they always succeed? Of course not, but they generally have the nod. There are closed cans that do it very well, better than the 650 as noted by others. Heck my lowly 558's have a wider presence than the 650. Much of this is inherent to the design, and tends to affect all audio signals played as a signature of the headphone.
 
When 1), 2) and 3) all come together the magic happens. Drop one of the three and it can be minimal at best. The best audio gear in the world won't fix the MeatLoaf Bat out of Hell SACD, whereas you need the cheapest of earbuds to completely strip the Cowboy Junkies album mentioned of it's amazing depth and ambience.
 
Good luck in your search - it's a magical moment for sure when it all comes together.

 

[DDDamian]

 
I appreciate that you took the time to share this. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the x5 yesterday, so I guess I was reading your mind. I chose it essentially for the reasons that you described. The x5 will be my transportable rig for around the house and getting away from the computer. I will still continue to use the BHC as the primary amp for the 650. 

You won't regret it. Head over to the X5 custom mod thread when you get it, and use good Class 10 microSD's. If you have any cans 200ohm or less you will be amazed. For the 650's you're almost there and down the road you can add the E12 or whatever suitable portable amp is tops then.
 
I love it - hope you enjoy!
 
Edit: Be sure to set the gain to high for your 650's.

 

[penmarker]

I posted this in a different thread a while back,
 

I love soundstage but have a hard time discerning them properly. Up until now, all of the music I've heard from earphones/IEM/headphones sounded like they were a wall of music from the front instead of a parabolic shape (left and right sounds sound far away but gets closer to my face as they come to the middle, as opposed to front channel being further away). I've tried all setups from low to high end, it's just not very realistic to me even binaural sounds. Maybe I'm putting my expectations too high but that's how I've been hearing things.

 
I think its okay if you cannot 'get' the soundstage. Coming from speakers, headphones sound like an emulator.