Schiit Yggdrasil V2 upgrade Technical Measurements
Jul 2, 2018 at 11:31 AM Post #91 of 203
The term linearity test is a shortened term; the full term is fundamental amplitude linearity test. I quote this because it proves that Jude is absolutely correct in that one categorically must resolve the amplitude of the fundamental; to do this test properly one needs to resolve only the fundamental and not the distortion and noise. To do this completely accurately one needs to do an FFT so that only the fundamental amplitude is measured and absolutely nothing else.

This test grew out of extremely serious and obvious problems that early digital had; it could not resolve small signals accurately, due to inherent problems in R2R, DSD and delta sigma DACs. In the early 1990's, one could employ a simple analogue technique of filtering out all signals apart from the fundamental, then simply measuring and plotting the error as the signal fell. The errors in those days were considerable, in that +/- 2dB was not uncommon at -90dB. Today however, -90dB is pretty accurate, and the tell tale lift, using this simple test, is simply noise from the DAC and so is unimportant. My pulse array DACs, from 1995, resolved this issue, and meant that the traditional analogue technique was worthless, as it simply measured residual noise. So I always use FFTs, with careful calibration of a -60 dB signal and measuring at -120 db; indeed even this technique reveals no linearity error once a suitable number of averages are done.

That's not to say the AP is perfect; it's not. I have recently being upgrading this test, and getting it to resolve +/- of one LSB of 32 bit data. This is a -186.638 dB signal. To do this I need to set the AP to FFT at 6 kHz with a 1.2M point; this is so that I can actually resolve this tiny signal. With synchronous 128 averaging and using a 2.496 kHz signal I can get the observed noise floor to be centred at -214 dB, so that the -186.638 dB signal stands out like a sore thumb. And all my DACs resolve this signal - but always with a +0.6dB error. I am still trying to investigate this error, but since all my DACs (Hugo 2, TT2, Dave) do it with the same error, I am pretty sure it's an AP measurement issue (due to the ADC's fundamental linearity limit). For a signal at -120 dB, this error would translate into a +0.0003 dB - not detectable for the usual -120db levels.

So why would somebody choose to misrepresent this test? It may be ignorance; or it may be that the tester has other motives. Conventional delta sigma modulators (noise shapers) have amplitude linearity issues; as the wanted signal approaches the noise shaper's resolution limit, it can no longer respond to the signal, and essentially the amplitude gets smaller. This is easy to see on noise shaper simulations, and it's something I have eliminated (that's one reason why I test (using verilog simulation) my noise shapers with -301dB signals and it must perfectly reconstruct it). If you want to counteract this issue, then simply add the correct amount of noise using the conventional test; the loss in amplitude is balanced by noise replacing it. Thus tweaking the bandwidth to add an exact amount of noise to suit the desired DAC to give a "perfect" linearity plot is a way round this problem. But of course it is not science; it's just a way to tweak measurements you want to present, to suit the narrative that you may have.

Rob
 
Jul 3, 2018 at 1:31 PM Post #92 of 203
I don't have much to add, as most of this goes way over my head without the subsequent background knowledge. I just wanted to applaud @jude, @atomicbob, @Jason Stoddard, and @Rob Watts for all their work on producing repeatable results (and adding more and more info) that are quite contrary to the one outlier stirring the pot.

It's just cool to see this kind of cooperation from people that in many cases would be "rivals" (at least in the marketplace). Awesome stuff!
 
Jul 12, 2018 at 3:01 AM Post #93 of 203
This may be the best clue yet about Amir's filtering (more in post 419 of his thread):

Jude Filtering versus Amir.png
 
Jul 16, 2018 at 12:19 AM Post #95 of 203
This may be the best clue yet about Amir's filtering (more in post 419 of his thread):


I think his graph references the bandwidth being limited with a high-pass elliptic filter at 1 kHz and low-pass elliptic filter at 1 kHz (or whatever the stimulus frequency is, if not 1 kHz). I'm quite sure the only elliptic-filter-bandpass-limited measurement I posted using that setting was one of the scope view ones at the bottom of this post, and I'm quite sure Amir knows that. The bandpass-limited linearity measurements I posted used the settings very specifically described in this post which, again, even Amir admitted generates essentially identical results as his (see the bottom portion of that post).

Again, it seems to me he's trying to suggest he's doing something wildly different, imbued with expertise only he has. Remember this, however:

...Yesterday, when being questioned about bandwidth limiting, whether or not it should be done, etc., etc. he ended up posting this linearity plot (Fig.5 below) and this accompanying commentary:


Fig.5 (above) @amirm comparing his linearity error measurement using his customizations to our settings in Fig.4.

Wait...what?! Yes, according to Amir, "there is no practical difference" between the results we're getting using the settings we applied for the measurements in Fig.4 -- that the "overall message below -90 dB remains the same."

NOTE: In response to his statement about "those dips all along the line to the right," I'm not getting the errors he's seeing with the same settings used for Fig.4. Here's what I'm getting:


Fig.6 (above) Bandpass Level Sweep linearity measurement of Benchmark DAC3's unbalanced outputs (digital input is unbalanced).

So, yes... After all of this... After claiming our first linearity measurements were useless (they're not -- they just include the noise and THD within the audioband). After claiming our second measurements were useless for eliminating wideband noise and distortion (which they do, as do his APx555 customized linearity measurements). After his "pull rank" comment. After stating that this can't be done without also having his level of experience and having on-hand a 25-year-old SYS2522 analyzer. After all the talk of the extensive customizations he made...

...After all of this, I the pleb (who will admit to having far less experience than @amirm, and with only three years experience with the APx555) am getting the same dang result, not just according to my linearity measurements but also according to his...

We're at the office now, two days behind schedule on the 2018 CanJam London Preview Video, so I'm not going to dive back into this topic whole-hog any time before I return from overseas.

I thought I'd quickly address that graph, though.
 
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Jul 16, 2018 at 12:50 AM Post #96 of 203
We're at the office now, two days behind schedule on the 2018 CanJam London Preview Video, so I'm not going to dive back into this topic whole-hog any time before I return from overseas.

I thought I'd quickly address that graph, though.
Thanks! Good luck catching up and have fun at CanJam!
I have a lot more to learn before I'm able to deeply understand all these measurements anyway. For now, I can only contribute gear. If you want to measure my Yggy, too, you can. Otherwise, it'll go to Jason next. Even though I miss it.
 
Jul 16, 2018 at 12:55 AM Post #97 of 203
Someone just pointed me to this comment by @amirm on reddit:

@amirm on reddit said:
I worked with Audio Precision for example on explaining how to perform linearity tests which they in turn taught Jude.

The chutzpah with this guy. First the "pull rank" comment, and now he'd have you believe that he needed to explain to Audio Precision how linearity measurements are done.

If you're inclined to believe that, I suggest you watch this video-recorded seminar by one of the legendary gentlemen behind Audio Precision's analyzers. Mr. Hofer recently retired, but well after he and his team had finished the APx555.

 
Jul 16, 2018 at 8:48 AM Post #99 of 203
I'll do you one better. Here's the link! Anything else I can do for you, Sir?

It's not so much that I'm incapable of using Google to find the link, but honestly, that site gets too much traffic as is for all the hate it spews. I do appreciate the sarcasm, though (and I mean that sincerely, not in a sarcastic way), made for a good chuckle.
 
Jul 16, 2018 at 7:05 PM Post #100 of 203
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Jul 16, 2018 at 7:19 PM Post #102 of 203
From Audiosciencereview on Reddit:

What is the most likely explanation is that Jude and Bob Smith (atomicbob) were given special hardware without this linearity flaw. Note that neither acknowledge openly where they got their units. I do. Probe them and ask them to provide an affidavit where they got the units.

The question would then remain: Why isn't Schiit selling ALL their units without the linearity flaw? Pause and think about this for just a second.... I feel bad that I would even have to explain that if Schiit can make a single DAC without a flaw, then they can mass-manufacture them without a flaw.

The real irony is that he makes a followup comment that applies directly to him. This is really a case of a man projecting his own flaws on others.

"Truth" requires that you understand the data and you have not. You are going by PR statements issues in the guise of measurement data.
As to Zune player, it did suck. Big time. It was quickly put together from a competing team in Xbox, not mine (I was in Windows division). I warned them hugely to not go there but they did not listen. Everything they could do wrong, they did. They underestimated power of Apple, charged ahead with arrogance and had their hat handed to them.
See how wrong your data is? Stop reading propaganda. Only then will you know the truth....
 
Jul 16, 2018 at 7:26 PM Post #103 of 203
From Audiosciencereview on Reddit:



The question would then remain: Why isn't Schiit selling ALL their units without the linearity flaw? Pause and think about this for just a second.... I feel bad that I would even have to explain that if Schiit can make a single DAC without a flaw, then they can mass-manufacture them without a flaw.

The real irony is that he makes a followup comment that applies directly to him. This is really a case of a man projecting his own flaws on others.

"Truth" requires that you understand the data and you have not. You are going by PR statements issues in the guise of measurement data.
As to Zune player, it did suck. Big time. It was quickly put together from a competing team in Xbox, not mine (I was in Windows division). I warned them hugely to not go there but they did not listen. Everything they could do wrong, they did. They underestimated power of Apple, charged ahead with arrogance and had their hat handed to them.
See how wrong your data is? Stop reading propaganda. Only then will you know the truth....

I was the lucky recipient of that last reply lol.
 
Jul 16, 2018 at 7:40 PM Post #104 of 203
Jul 22, 2018 at 2:41 AM Post #105 of 203
The question would then remain: Why isn't Schiit selling ALL their units without the linearity flaw? Pause and think about this for just a second.... I feel bad that I would even have to explain that if Schiit can make a single DAC without a flaw, then they can mass-manufacture them without a flaw.
Mid-stream engineering change? Only way to know is buy a new unit or... you know... communication from the company. There have been several silent updates to various products (Modi 2 multibit firmware, Gungir, Jotunheim, etc.) if you do your research.
 

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