[Robert Padgett]

My answer will echo a video I watched from Upscale--which Kevin explains that stock tubes are selected by the designer when they "voice" (He was talking about rolling tubes on the PrimaLuna with PrimaLuna tubes) their amplifiers. Despite that, we as "audiophiles" feel compelled to change the tubes.
After misadventures trying to roll 6SN7 tubes (with two socket-savers and adapters) on the Valhalla, I pondered why Schiit would ship the Valhalla 2 with Russian 6N1P tubes if everyone Knew that they didn't sound good. Then I put them back in and realized that they sounded better than any of the variants I had tried.
Hmmm...an electronic designer selecting a "stock tube" which was decent sounding, what a concept. My suggestion is to try different tubes of the 6922-type--of which there are a baker's dozen choices. I found happiness with a 6DJ8, and I awaiting a pair of 12au7 tubes (with adapters) for another variety.
I have no experience with 6CG7.

 

[Wes S]

My answer will echo a video I watched from Upscale--which Kevin explains that stock tubes are selected by the designer when they "voice" (He was talking about rolling tubes on the PrimaLuna with PrimaLuna tubes) their amplifiers. Despite that, we as "audiophiles" feel compelled to change the tubes.
After misadventures trying to roll 6SN7 tubes (with two socket-savers and adapters) on the Valhalla, I pondered why Schiit would ship the Valhalla 2 with Russian 6N1P tubes if everyone Knew that they didn't sound good. Then I put them back in and realized that they sounded better than any of the variants I had tried.
Hmmm...an electronic designer selecting a "stock tube" which was decent sounding, what a concept. My suggestion is to try different tubes of the 6922-type--of which there are a baker's dozen choices. I found happiness with a 6DJ8, and I awaiting a pair of 12au7 tubes (with adapters) for another variety.
I have no experience with 6CG7.

I believe the designer's find the best - (most available, reliable, and neutral), tube they can find to put in their amps, as stock tubes. However, I believe they all know, there are better tubes, and that the future owners will discover this, by rolling. Now, as far as rolling other tube types, that were not part of the design, without knowing how the amp is designed, just seems strange?

 

[bokononista]

My answer will echo a video I watched from Upscale--which Kevin explains that stock tubes are selected by the designer when they "voice" (He was talking about rolling tubes on the PrimaLuna with PrimaLuna tubes) their amplifiers. Despite that, we as "audiophiles" feel compelled to change the tubes.
After misadventures trying to roll 6SN7 tubes (with two socket-savers and adapters) on the Valhalla, I pondered why Schiit would ship the Valhalla 2 with Russian 6N1P tubes if everyone Knew that they didn't sound good. Then I put them back in and realized that they sounded better than any of the variants I had tried.
Hmmm...an electronic designer selecting a "stock tube" which was decent sounding, what a concept. My suggestion is to try different tubes of the 6922-type--of which there are a baker's dozen choices. I found happiness with a 6DJ8, and I awaiting a pair of 12au7 tubes (with adapters) for another variety.
I have no experience with 6CG7.

Well I understand. I have read the comment from Jason Stoddard somewhere here and he wrote about his decision of tube type selection - they need tubes available in large amounts. Mike Moffat wrote here about 6N3 tubes like WE396A that it is much better than any 6922 tube but they cant use it because of availability (And they use it in Vali 2 for example - saw picture). I understand the best way is to stay near original design as possible while rolling tubes, but sometimes result is just better.

 

[Robert Padgett]

Well I understand. I have read the comment from Jason Stoddard somewhere here and he wrote about his decision of tube type selection - they need tubes available in large amounts. Mike Moffat wrote here about 6N3 tubes like WE396A that it is much better than any 6922 tube but they cant use it because of availability (And they use it in Vali 2 for example - saw picture). I understand the best way is to stay near original design as possible while rolling tubes, but sometimes result is just better.

And along the same lines, JJ Electronics, using the old Tesla plant in Slovakia also produces the ECC99 power tubes for Valhalla. I thought those were exclusive to Russian suppliers.

On one of the Russian tube pages, I saw that 6H1P is the most popular double triode medium mu tube in Audiophile preamps. I like the 6DJ8 version, and the stock tube on the Vali 2 is a 6BZ7. My desire to make a 6H8C or 6SN7 work on Valhalla was derived from the appreciable difference heard when this type was rolled on the Vali 2. But it doesn't seem to have the same effect on Valhalla, and it is ugly.

 

[tricolor]

Hey @Vindsvelle & folks! hope all is well!

Greetings, everyone. I'm hoping you experienced Val users can provide some insight into my dilemma.

Can I reasonably achieve the soundstage I want (up to and maybe beyond the soundstage the SS provides) with tube rolling? If so, with which tubes? I've heard mostly unanimous good things about the gold JJ 6922; I'd like to avoid tubes requiring adapters for the time being. Or am I barking up the wrong tree by trying to get an expansive soundstage with tubes at this pricerange?

I find the Valhalla with its stock tubes pleasing in most regards except for the attribute that was my reason for upgrading in the first place. But in its present state, it is outperformed by the Sony (I never thought I'd type those words, but here we are.) Volume-matched (as closely as possible), flat, EQ'd... the STR-DG500's soundstage always wins.

I have 9 days left in my trial period, and would greatly appreciate the feedback of all you experienced Val users, 6-series owners, and tube rollers to help me make an informed decision. Thanks.

Just my humble cents coming from someone who does NOT have an HD600... so not sure how "soundstage" for it goes...

I have been using a Grado GS1000i with the Valhalla 2 along with a few different tubes. I am coming from an old SS Sony home theatre receiver, so my "quest" for tubes started in the first place when I got more interested in 2 channel audio instead of home theatre...

I must confess I find that the difference in rolling tends to be QUITE subtle AND honestly, "9 days" or less by now MIGHT NOT be enough time for you to simply sit down and enjoy the music... I am not 100% sure about the "depreciation" after the trial period, say, 1 or 2 months... BUT if you could bear with that loss, that would be my advice... just stick to it for a bit longer and listen to music without rushing...

Currently, I am happy with the Valhalla using an adapter, so I am using a NOS Mullard CV4024 (12AT7's) and I am super happy with it... but yeah, I also do enjoy the stock tubes. And I also enjoy (and tried) NOS Philips JAN6922 and new stock JJ's... (Again, I find the differences extremely "subtle"... so for me, finding this "combo" has been more of a practical way to use the same tubes as my other amp...).

JAN6922 are nice, but microphonic... JJ6922's are definitely a good choice.. affordable. Stock tubes are quite affordable as well. And honestly, pretty good.

Mullard's are my "choice" for now, as although silly, I like the flare up when I turn on the pre amp / amp and of course, I think (well, I hope) NOS will last longer as well... And on top of it, they are NOS but not crazy expensive either. And yep, it does feel like a tid bit "nicer" middle and bass... along with a good sound stage compared to the other tubes...

Cheers!

 

[Robert Padgett]

Hey @Vindsvelle & folks! hope all is well!

-clip--
Just my humble cents coming from someone who does NOT have an HD600... so not sure how "soundstage" for it goes...
--clip--
I must confess I find that the difference in rolling tends to be QUITE subtle AND honestly, "9 days" or less by now MIGHT NOT be enough time for you to simply sit down and enjoy the music... I am not 100% sure about the "depreciation" after the trial period, say, 1 or 2 months... BUT if you could bear with that loss, that would be my advice... just stick to it for a bit longer and listen to music without rushing...

Cheers!

I would concur with SUBTLE being the keyword. Rolling on the Valhalla has been a study in subtle changes. I am not sure if I can discern a difference, as much as other factors which contribute to the differences like barometric pressure, weather, mood, and personal level of anxiety.
If I am in a bad mood--nothing sounds "right" but if it is crisp and clear outside, and I awoke with a positive vibe--they all sound good.
An Electrical Engineer, who has found great humor in my tube-rolling adventures, said that a tube either works to the specs or it doesn't.
He said that we want to hear differences because either we paid big bucks for a "holy grail" tube, or we want to feel rewarded because we found a real bargain. But, in the end, tubes sound like tubes of similar design and specification.
Today, the sun is shining, and I am in a good mood, so the Valhalla and the 6DJ8 tubes sound as good as I have ever heard them...

 

[bokononista]

I would concur with SUBTLE being the keyword. Rolling on the Valhalla has been a study in subtle changes. I am not sure if I can discern a difference, as much as other factors which contribute to the differences like barometric pressure, weather, mood, and personal level of anxiety.
If I am in a bad mood--nothing sounds "right" but if it is crisp and clear outside, and I awoke with a positive vibe--they all sound good.
An Electrical Engineer, who has found great humor in my tube-rolling adventures, said that a tube either works to the specs or it doesn't.
He said that we want to hear differences because either we paid big bucks for a "holy grail" tube, or we want to feel rewarded because we found a real bargain. But, in the end, tubes sound like tubes of similar design and specification.
Today, the sun is shining, and I am in a good mood, so the Valhalla and the 6DJ8 tubes sound as good as I have ever heard them...

Depends on sensitivity. For me there are differences at the same level as between my T1 vs DT880 headphones for example. Of course there is also psychoacoustics (mood etc.). I think stock tubes are also good, sometimes i put it in and enjoy their flavor. I bought recently a different 6N1p tubes (Voshkod) to compare with stock tubes. No fuzzy imaging anymore. It is little bit better. But in general sound of this type remains (little veil, less bass amout and dynamics).

 

[Vindsvelle]

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful replies. I'll try to address some of your remarks with respect to my original question (which essentially was, "Can I widen the soundstage with affordable tubes?").

But maybe there is some HD600 limitation you cant pass.

I love the soundstage the HD600 is capable of, and the SONY STR-DG500 I referred to hits it right in the sweet spot. Wide, deep, immersive. I know the problem is not the 600s, but the Valhalla; I'm just trying to get that STR-DG500 soundstage out of the Val. Maybe it's not possible?

Adapters and the WE396A tube, will give you depth and width, unmatched by any 6922.

I've seen you advocate for the WE396A before during my readthrough of this thread. As stated in my OP, I am avoiding tubes which require adapters for now (unless they are affordable and come with very strong endorsements). Moreover, the WE396A are currently ~$115. Apiece. I'm unwilling to pay over half the MSRP of Valhalla 2 for tubes when I am unsure whether it can achieve what I want it to. But, I'd be willing to consider them a ways down the road if a significant widening of the soundstage can be expected.

My answer will echo a video I watched from Upscale--which Kevin explains that stock tubes are selected by the designer when they "voice" (He was talking about rolling tubes on the PrimaLuna with PrimaLuna tubes) their amplifiers. Despite that, we as "audiophiles" feel compelled to change the tubes.
After misadventures trying to roll 6SN7 tubes (with two socket-savers and adapters) on the Valhalla, I pondered why Schiit would ship the Valhalla 2 with Russian 6N1P tubes if everyone Knew that they didn't sound good. Then I put them back in and realized that they sounded better than any of the variants I had tried.

This is paradoxical for me; the anecdotes I've read vary wildly, from "The stock tubes are the best," to "The stock tubes suck," and "Different tubes can transform the Valhalla's sound." It's difficult to know where to land. The general consensus however seems to be that affordable tubes can change (widen / deepen) the soundstage for the better.

I must confess I find that the difference in rolling tends to be QUITE subtle AND honestly, "9 days" or less by now MIGHT NOT be enough time for you to simply sit down and enjoy the music... I am not 100% sure about the "depreciation" after the trial period, say, 1 or 2 months... BUT if you could bear with that loss, that would be my advice... just stick to it for a bit longer and listen to music without rushing...

I appreciate the constructive advice here, but I'm unsure of whether there's a consensus on burn-in time. I've heard "a few hours cumulatively is enough" (IIRC Steve Hoffman himself said that in a tube thread), as well as "at least 200 hours". The Valhalla I'm auditioning sits at just over 50 hours with the stock tubes. I noticed an improvement inside the first 20 hours or so, but I think I've hit a wall of diminishing returns where any improvement isn't perceptible?

JAN6922 are nice, but microphonic... JJ6922's are definitely a good choice.. affordable. Stock tubes are quite affordable as well. And honestly, pretty good.

Interesting. JJ6922s keep coming up in my "ancedotal research."

Unfortunately I'm still equivocal on the matter of whether different tubes can improve the Valhalla's soundstage. All of its strengths are great, and all of its deficiencies I've managed to satisfactorily EQ -- except the one attribute I bought it for! Maddening.

Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone! Still soliciting any recommendations for soundstage-improving tubes

 

[Robert Padgett]

Thanks, everyone, for the thoughtful replies. I'll try to address some of your remarks with respect to my original question (which essentially was, "Can I widen the soundstage with affordable tubes?").

This is paradoxical for me; the anecdotes I've read vary wildly, from "The stock tubes are the best," to "The stock tubes suck," and "Different tubes can transform the Valhalla's sound." It's difficult to know where to land. The general consensus, however, seems to be that affordable tubes can change (widen/deepen) the soundstage for the better.

Unfortunately, I'm still equivocal on the matter of whether different tubes can improve the Valhalla's soundstage. All of its strengths are great, and all of its deficiencies I've managed to satisfactorily EQ -- except the one attribute I bought it for! Maddening.

Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone! Still soliciting any recommendations for soundstage-improving tubes

My only advice is to trust your ears and remember Tubes sound differently from one day to the next. Typically we power them down overnight and power up in the morning. I found that some tubes actually sounded better if I left them powered up--the 1951 6H8C ribbed-plate Fotons -- I don't think it is a long-term strategy, but it was a surprising revelation that a good day was needed for them to achieve optimum sound.

Welcome to the Hobby, and to the thread, we are all newbies when compared to some of the wisdom you will find here.

 

[judson_w]

Both it and the Val are fed by foobar2000 > WASAPI > cheap-o USB DAC > TOSLINK to the Sony / RCA (obviously) to the Val.

I am going to throw my two cents in here. For fun, have you tried using the cheap-o USB DAC to the Sony via the RCA? I am not going to state that this will 100% highlight the issue, but with my understanding, with your current setup, the DAC is just acting as a USB to TOSLINK converter of the digital signal (which could affect things, but for the sake of simplicity, we will say does not). At which point differences you are hearing could be due to both differences between the Sony's DAC and the cheap-o DAC as well as differences in the Valhalla's headphone output and the Sony's headphone output.

If you have not tried using the RCA from the cheap-o DAC to the Sony, it might be good to see how that affect's what you hear from the Sony. It is possible you will find that the Sony's quality drops. Or not.

 

[tricolor]

I appreciate the constructive advice here, but I'm unsure of whether there's a consensus on burn-in time. I've heard "a few hours cumulatively is enough" (IIRC Steve Hoffman himself said that in a tube thread), as well as "at least 200 hours". The Valhalla I'm auditioning sits at just over 50 hours with the stock tubes. I noticed an improvement inside the first 20 hours or so, but I think I've hit a wall of diminishing returns where any improvement isn't perceptible?

Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone! Still soliciting any recommendations for soundstage-improving tubes

hmmmm, I should have mentioned that I don’t believe in crazy long burn in times... my point was more of leaning towards the psychoacoustic and “eagerness” to hear the difference when we are rushing... and for me, in particular, the fact that i am in a remote location and that it would take probably 2 weeks for me to receive the tubes if i order them online...

yeah, i agree.. i think after 20-30 hours I
don’t think my ears and equipment can resolve the subtle changes... if any!

cheers!

 

[bokononista]

I love the soundstage the HD600 is capable of, and the SONY STR-DG500 I referred to hits it right in the sweet spot. Wide, deep, immersive. I know the problem is not the 600s, but the Valhalla; I'm just trying to get that STR-DG500 soundstage out of the Val. Maybe it's not possible?

Anybody know SONY STR-DG500? Is it possible it is just a better amp?

 

[judson_w]

It is possible. It is also possible if the set up is the cheap-o dac goes directly to the valhalla, that dac is not as good as the Sony's DAC.

I had suggested trying running the RCAs from the cheap-o dac to the Sony to see how that affects the sound of the Sony. Another possible suggestion is to run the RCAs from the Sony's Tape Out to the Valhalla. This should take the line level from the Sony's DAC and send it through the Valhalla, bypassing the Sony's volume control and such. (So, if you do have speakers hooked up to it, you can turn the volume all the way down and signal will still be sent to the Valhalla).

This is probably the better comparison between the two headphone amp sections.

(Note @Vindsvelle, if that is how you do have it set up, I apologize. In the initial description, I read it as the TOSLINK from the cheap-o dac goes to the Sony and the RCA from the cheap-o dac goes to the Valhalla).

 

[tricolor]

Hey @Wes S , folks! Hope all is well!

I believe the designer's find the best - (most available, reliable, and neutral), tube they can find to put in their amps, as stock tubes. However, I believe they all know, there are better tubes, and that the future owners will discover this, by rolling. Now, as far as rolling other tube types, that were not part of the design, without knowing how the amp is designed, just seems strange?

That is a "question" that was bugging my head... Is there an "active" adapter? Where "resistors" or any other electronic component would "fine tune" voltages & currents to make a tube work under the "specs" the original tube was designed for? It sounds "weird", but feels despite different designs, lots of tubes share "similar" specs...

Cheers!

 

[Vindsvelle]

(Note @Vindsvelle, if that is how you do have it set up, I apologize. In the initial description, I read it as the TOSLINK from the cheap-o dac goes to the Sony and the RCA from the cheap-o dac goes to the Valhalla).

That is indeed how I have it set up.

(For the sake of explicitness, I'll mention that the cheap-o DAC is my sole means of utilizing USB audio, as sound files are my only music source. So regrettably the USB DAC has to be somewhere in the chain.)

I had suggested trying running the RCAs from the cheap-o dac to the Sony to see how that affects the sound of the Sony. Another possible suggestion is to run the RCAs from the Sony's Tape Out to the Valhalla. This should take the line level from the Sony's DAC and send it through the Valhalla, bypassing the Sony's volume control and such. (So, if you do have speakers hooked up to it, you can turn the volume all the way down and signal will still be sent to the Valhalla).

Hey, thank you for both of your recommendations.

I neglected to mention that that exact procedure, of the USB DAC vs the Sony DAC, had occurred to me before posting here; I had tried the DAC > TOSLINK > Sony > Tape-Out RCA > Val method, but the Sony just did not want to output any signal to its Tape-Out RCA with TOSLINK connected, irrespective of the output I selected. I'll monkey some more when I next have time, including trying your suggestion of using DAC > RCA > Sony > RCA > Val.

I don't anticipate too much of a difference - I know my mini USB DAC uses a very old PCM2704 chip, but the Sony's is even older, being an approx. ~16 year old unit - but I'm really hoping there is a difference, because that could mean the solution would be to just get an actually decent DAC.

I'm not optimistic, but how nice would it be if it turned out to be that simple?

Will update with any relevant results.

In the meantime, if anyone's experienced a notable widening of soundstage with a certain tube pairing, please feel free to chime in. And thanks to all of you for indulging my frustrated search