Schiit Valhalla Tube Rolling thread.

[ScubaMan2017]

Greetings, everyone. I'm hoping you experienced Val users can provide some insight into my dilemma.

I'm currently in the 15 day audition period of the Valhalla with my HD 600, both bone stock, with ~50 hours cumulative load time on the Valhalla. I own a Sony STR-DG500 which, to my genuine astonishment, has proved to be an excellent SS headphone amp. Both it and the Val are fed by foobar2000 > WASAPI > cheap-o USB DAC > TOSLINK to the Sony / RCA (obviously) to the Val.
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Can I reasonably achieve the soundstage I want (up to and maybe beyond the soundstage the SS provides) with tube rolling? If so, with which tubes? I've heard mostly unanimous good things about the gold JJ 6922; I'd like to avoid tubes requiring adapters for the time being. Or am I barking up the wrong tree by trying to get an expansive soundstage with tubes at this pricerange?
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I have 9 days left in my trial period, and would greatly appreciate the feedback of all you experienced Val users, 6-series owners, and tube rollers to help me make an informed decision. Thanks.

Welcome to the thread, @Vindsvelle ! My 2 cents = if you want to mess around with different effects, I noticed the most dramatic results with my Vali 2. When I roll different tubes within it, my HD6xx (similar to your HD600) pick it up right away. I've had my new toy (Valhalla2 [stock SN2P & different flavours of SN1P paired tubes]). I can't detect the the differences. Your mileage may vary, however, you might have more luck with another model (if rolling + significantly different effects is your main goal). Meh, I'm happy with my toys.

BTW, would you consider upgrading your devices feeding your amplifier? Re: el cheapo DAC... that might benefit from an upgrade (Modi 3 or perhaps a Dragonfly?). Foobar's what I use and I particularly like its Win7 version (I use its Replay Gain mode). Re: your music files.... AAC? FLAC? ALAC? high-bit-rate-MP3?

 

[judson_w]

Hey, thank you for both of your recommendations.

I neglected to mention that that exact procedure, of the USB DAC vs the Sony DAC, had occurred to me before posting here; I had tried the DAC > TOSLINK > Sony > Tape-Out RCA > Val method, but the Sony just did not want to output any signal to its Tape-Out RCA with TOSLINK connected, irrespective of the output I selected. I'll monkey some more when I next have time, including trying your suggestion of using DAC > RCA > Sony > RCA > Val.

I don't anticipate too much of a difference - I know my mini USB DAC uses a very old PCM2704 chip, but the Sony's is even older, being an approx. ~16 year old unit - but I'm really hoping there is a difference, because that could mean the solution would be to just get an actually decent DAC.

I'm not optimistic, but how nice would it be if it turned out to be that simple?

I am generally not optimistic either, but it is nice when simple issues like this happen. That being said, it is also my understanding that while the DAC chip does a bit, there is generally still an analog stage after it in a DAC to get the signal to line level which could also affect things.

Best of luck.

 

[Robert Padgett]

Today, a matched pair of JJ-Electronics 12AU7 tubes arrived, and they sound great right out of the chute. I went ahead and ordered the JJ-Electronics ECC99 power tubes for my Valhalla, and I am going All-Slovakian... the stock Russian tubes will be my back-up set in case I burn out a valve, or pull the whole rig to the floor, by snagging the HP cable in my wheelchair wheels. I bought a JJ 6SN7 brand new and it impressed me. The former Tesla plant is doing something right. I thought the only replacement tubes for the Power tubes were Russian, so glad that JJ-Electronics are making them. I was told not to expect much change in SQ by switching power tubes...we will see.

 

[Vindsvelle]

BTW, would you consider upgrading your devices feeding your amplifier? Re: el cheapo DAC... that might benefit from an upgrade (Modi 3 or perhaps a Dragonfly?). Foobar's what I use and I particularly like its Win7 version (I use its Replay Gain mode). Re: your music files.... AAC? FLAC? ALAC? high-bit-rate-MP3?

Hey ScubaMan2017 - Yes, I'll definitely be upgrading my DAC, to either a Topping D30 or the ubiquitous Modi 3, as you mentioned.

I really like foobar too!. Been using it for 12 or 13 years. I wrote several of my own scripts for file renaming and directory generation with various schema (based on metadata fields, pulled from the Discogs plugin) for indexing new downloads with two keystrokes (including contingencies for compilations, collaborations, codec, etc.); same with mass automated ReplayGain scanning and applying (i.e. it allocates ReplayGain data in Album mode to each album, based on tags). I love customizable, hyper-efficient automation and foobar has endlessly useful utilities My library's about as meticulously organized as any you'll find on the Soulseek network.

100% of my Valhalla testing has been conducted with FLAC.

I am generally not optimistic either, but it is nice when simple issues like this happen. That being said, it is also my understanding that while the DAC chip does a bit, there is generally still an analog stage after it in a DAC to get the signal to line level which could also affect things.

I'm hoping that something like this is potentially to blame, and that a simple DAC upgrade (something I've been meaning to do for a while anyway) may be part of the answer. But it seems very unlikely.

My friend brought his JDS O2 Amp/DAC over (it had no RCA outs) and we used a 3.5mm > RCA cable (the same I'd used when trying my Cowon Plenue D as a source straight to the Valhalla) to see whether the Val's soundstage was improved relative to solid state and... nope.

Is the Valhalla's average-seeming soundstage characteristic of most tube amps? Could I expect a wider soundstage from the Crack, or the Darkvoice (both of which I'd considered before pulling the trigger on the Valhalla)?

 

[bokononista]

Today, a matched pair of JJ-Electronics 12AU7 tubes arrived, and they sound great right out of the chute. I went ahead and ordered the JJ-Electronics ECC99 power tubes for my Valhalla, and I am going All-Slovakian... the stock Russian tubes will be my back-up set in case I burn out a valve, or pull the whole rig to the floor, by snagging the HP cable in my wheelchair wheels. I bought a JJ 6SN7 brand new and it impressed me. The former Tesla plant is doing something right. I thought the only replacement tubes for the Power tubes were Russian, so glad that JJ-Electronics are making them. I was told not to expect much change in SQ by switching power tubes...we will see.

Can you desribe the sound improvement more please? What kind of adapters do you use? I am very interested now, I am from the Czech Republic and never tried any JJs yet

 

[bokononista]

Hey ScubaMan2017 - Yes, I'll definitely be upgrading my DAC, to either a Topping D30 or the ubiquitous Modi 3, as you mentioned.......
Is the Valhalla's average-seeming soundstage characteristic of most tube amps? Could I expect a wider soundstage from the Crack, or the Darkvoice (both of which I'd considered before pulling the trigger on the Valhalla)?

I do not reply to DAC questions often, because i dont have a strong opinion because of the whole debate about measurements. I have heard Modi 3 and it is very good DAC. I have a Bifrost Multibit and it does have a different presentation than delta-sigma. I think it does have a better soundstage presentation than Modi 3 and the sound is more analog like - i like the multibit more for Valhalla because tubes are also more analog like and sound more natural.
The Valhalla has very good soundstage presentation and very wide and deep in comparsion with solid states (i have heard). This is the main reason i have it. This is also very common opinion in Valhalla comments and reviews. I just dont know why you dont have such an experience (many possibilities).

 

[KoshNaranek]

Today, a matched pair of JJ-Electronics 12AU7 tubes arrived, and they sound great right out of the chute. I went ahead and ordered the JJ-Electronics ECC99 power tubes for my Valhalla, and I am going All-Slovakian... the stock Russian tubes will be my back-up set in case I burn out a valve, or pull the whole rig to the floor, by snagging the HP cable in my wheelchair wheels. I bought a JJ 6SN7 brand new and it impressed me. The former Tesla plant is doing something right. I thought the only replacement tubes for the Power tubes were Russian, so glad that JJ-Electronics are making them. I was told not to expect much change in SQ by switching power tubes...we will see.

Have approved this swap with Schiit? or are you just trying this based on tube spec sheet?
In other words, what is your source that this substitution will work?
References please

 

[Robert Padgett]

Can you desribe the sound improvement more please? What kind of adapters do you use? I am very interested now, I am from the Czech Republic and never tried any JJs yet

Broader soundstage, right from the start. Similar to the 6SN7 tubes, but not "Bloated sounding" like the 6SN7 variants. I had resolved to stick with 6922-type tubes, and used the stock 6N1P tubes along with a matched pair of 6DJ8. The 12AU7 has the soundstage of the 6SN7 with punchy bass, and well-balanced midrange of the 6DJ8. I was so impressed I ordered the ECC99 tubes also, to replace the stock tubes from Schiit entirely. I am using a pair of gold pin adapters I purchased from Aliexpress. The hole size of the Valhalla 2 is sufficient that I can plug them directly in the sockets without adding socket-savers as spacers. Maybe I am a bit biased, but I really think JJ Electronics is a premier tube manufacturer.

 

[Robert Padgett]

Have approved this swap with Schiit? or are you just trying this based on tube spec sheet?
In other words, what is your source that this substitution will work?
References please

I see no reason to check with Schiit to see if the substitution will work. Other tube rollers on this forum have been using both 12au7 and 12at7 tubes with great success. I am trying it, not based on tube spec sheets, but because I had purchased a 6SN7 from JJ-Electronics new and used it on the Vali 2, and I liked its sound. I am replacing the ECC99 (6N6P) power tubes with JJ-Electronics to see if that makes further improvement. The substitution works, and my ears are all the proof I need. It sounds Great, and I would recommend those tubes to anyone. The JJ-Electronics tubes are relatively cheap compared to NOS vintage tubes.

 

[judson_w]

My friend brought his JDS O2 Amp/DAC over (it had no RCA outs) and we used a 3.5mm > RCA cable (the same I'd used when trying my Cowon Plenue D as a source straight to the Valhalla) to see whether the Val's soundstage was improved relative to solid state and... nope.

Is the Valhalla's average-seeming soundstage characteristic of most tube amps? Could I expect a wider soundstage from the Crack, or the Darkvoice (both of which I'd considered before pulling the trigger on the Valhalla)?

Shame that it did not affect things. While part of me wants to ask if you tried the JDS O2 Amp/DAC to the Sony, that is me nitpicking for thoroughness. It sounds like you have done enough tests to settle your own mind.

I cannot answer as to soundstage. I have had some enjoyable moments with my valhalla, including listening to Rhiannon Giddens' "Baby Boy", where I was startled at the start of the second verse because it sounded like she was singing just behind my left shoulder. However I would also have to admit that before I had the HD600s with the Valhalla 2, I was listening to ten year old Bose Quiet Comforts through a cheap Sherwood stereo receiver. (Note: The Bose were good, but the HD600s are much better in my mind). The clarity of the HD600s are great and I find them spacious enough for my liking. If they were more spacious with something, I would be pleasantly surprised, but I am not hunting yet for that.

Of course, there is a lot of subjectivity when it comes to audio. I hope someone else can provide an answer of the Valhalla vs Crack vs Darkvoice.

 

[bokononista]

I was so impressed I ordered the ECC99 tubes also.

Does theese need some adapter?

Did you buy gold pins JJ or normal 12AU7 and ECC99?

 

[Robert Padgett]

Does theese need some adapter?

Did you buy gold pins JJ or normal 12AU7 and ECC99?

Just bought the regular, without gold pins, and the ECC99 are direct drop-ins for the 6N6P power tubes, no adapter needed. I am listening right now, and the JJ Tubes are very good sounding on day two...

 

[KoshNaranek]

I see no reason to check with Schiit to see if the substitution will work. Other tube rollers on this forum have been using both 12au7 and 12at7 tubes with great success. I am trying it, not based on tube spec sheets, but because I had purchased a 6SN7 from JJ-Electronics new and used it on the Vali 2, and I liked its sound. I am replacing the ECC99 (6N6P) power tubes with JJ-Electronics to see if that makes further improvement. The substitution works, and my ears are all the proof I need. It sounds Great, and I would recommend those tubes to anyone. The JJ-Electronics tubes are relatively cheap compared to NOS vintage tubes.

My Apologies for not being clear. My question was regarding the ECC99 tubes. The spec sheet implies that they are similar to the 6n6p but not the same.

Did you rely on the spec sheet or did you confirm with Schiit?

After trying the ECC99, is there a difference from the 6n6p? If so, can you please describe it? I specifically would like to know if you tried the ECC99 in isolation to other factors.

Thank you

 

[Robert Padgett]

My Apologies for not being clear. My question was regarding the ECC99 tubes. The spec sheet implies that they are similar to the 6n6p but not the same.

Did you rely on the spec sheet or did you confirm with Schiit?

After trying the ECC99, is there a difference from the 6n6p? If so, can you please describe it? I specifically would like to know if you tried the ECC99 in isolation to other factors.

Thank you

The ECC99 tubes are on order, so no comparison yet. It is my understanding the 6N6P tubes are often also designated as ECC99, and it appears that only JJ Electronics is the sole manufacturer outside of China or Russia. There is a small variation in Spec, as would found comparing the stock 6N1P driver tubes to other 6922-type tubes. I am making the assumption that this tube should perform in a similar manner.

From a post in 2011 from DIY Audio: FWIW

"They're all closely related, but not identical.
6N6P is a Russian-made twin triode (medium mu, 9 pin mini). Pin-out is same as ECC88, 6DJ8, and kin. 6.3V filament on pins 4 and 5.
ECC99 is a similar European tube, but slightly higher mu, slightly higher anode resistance, a little different electrically from 6N6P. Pin-out is same as 6N6P, 6.3-volt filament."

I am speculating, but I think they should be OK substitutes. We will see...

 

[Vindsvelle]

Broader soundstage, right from the start.

Broader soundstage, you say!? That pricked my ears right up; sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. And they're a fraction of the cost of the gold pin 6922 I was going to order. (You're talking about these guys, right?)

I saw you said you didn't get the gold-pinned versions, but is there a specific adapter link you'd recommend?