[Superfrag]

Quote:

Yeah how about leveraging the cheaper labor in CN to compete on price? The Miracle for 500-600USD would likely sell like hot cakes. At 900, maybe not so much. Unless of course you are already running at capacity and can't scale up.

The Miracle is supposed to be on par with the JH13 and Westone ES5 etc in terms of quality, aside from the fact that it has its own house sound. It doesn't sell as well as JHA and all in US, due to its location in China, but I believe that in Asia, UM sells more than JHA.

 
Quote:

That's probably asking for too much there 12 drivers aren't that cheap to buy and I'm guessing UM isn't able to buy at the amounts that some other custom manufacturers are able to. I could be mistaken however.
 
@project86: How much of a drop in quality are these compared to the Livewires and also how much less bass do they have? From what I got the Livewires have better extension, more bass and more revealing.

 
From what I can read, he said that the quality is on par with UE10, and infact its more lively, has more clarity and is faster than the UE10... which leads me to believe these are much better than the Livewires.
 

 

[stephenguoo]

Quote:

The Miracle is supposed to be on par with the JH13 and Westone ES5 etc in terms of quality, aside from the fact that it has its own house sound. It doesn't sell as well as JHA and all in US, due to its location in China, but I believe that in Asia, UM sells more than JHA.

 
 
From what I can read, he said that the quality is on par with UE10, and infact its more lively, has more clarity and is faster than the UE10... which leads me to believe these are much better than the Livewires.
 

I agree with Superfrag. I don't understand why people automatically links Chinese products with cheap rip-offs from American companies. I do admit that there are a lot of rip-off products from China, but that does not represent everybody.
When UM products can compete with JH/UE in terms of quality, why would we have to drop the price by so low? 
In fact, there were Japanese customers who love our sound signature so much that they send their UE customs for us to re-mold and upgrade, so the UE customs can sound more like UM products. 
I do not take any criticisms personally since I'm just a NA distributor, not the boss of UM. 
I have been a long time audiophile, and UM Mage is my favorite customs at the moment. If you are bass-heads, I can't help you there. But personally I love vocal and orchestra, so the Mage if perfect for me. I don't see why it would be cheaper than UE/JH when the quality is equally competitive. It all boils down to your preference. 
As far as I know, UM wants to have a good reputation as an unique brand, and definitely not cheaper versions of UE/JH or other companies. I guess no one can argue on the fact that everybody has the right to create their own brand, and all opportunities are equal. Do not tell me that Chinese or other Asian brands must be cheaper than the American ones. That's not even giving them an opportunity. That's probably the reason why so many Chinese companies just decide to make cheap rip-offs because they can only sell in that direction. 

 

[toughnut]

Quote:

I agree with Superfrag. I don't understand why people automatically links Chinese products with cheap rip-offs from American companies. I do admit that there are a lot of rip-off products from China, but that does not represent everybody.
When UM products can compete with JH/UE in terms of quality, why would we have to drop the price by so low? 
In fact, there were Japanese customers who love our sound signature so much that they send their UE customs for us to re-mold and upgrade, so the UE customs can sound more like UM products. 
I do not take any criticisms personally since I'm just a NA distributor, not the boss of UM. 
I have been a long time audiophile, and UM Mage is my favorite customs at the moment. If you are bass-heads, I can't help you there. But personally I love vocal and orchestra, so the Mage if perfect for me. I don't see why it would be cheaper than UE/JH when the quality is equally competitive. It all boils down to your preference. 
As far as I know, UM wants to have a good reputation as an unique brand, and definitely not cheaper versions of UE/JH or other companies. I guess no one can argue on the fact that everybody has the right to create their own brand, and all opportunities are equal. Do not tell me that Chinese or other Asian brands must be cheaper than the American ones. That's not even giving them an opportunity. That's probably the reason why so many Chinese companies just decide to make cheap rip-offs because they can only sell in that direction. 

Absolutely.

 

[project86]

Wow, this is turning into a very interesting discussion, not just of UM but of the business in general. Please keep it up everyone! Lots of excellent points, a few of which I'll address:

 
Quote:

I'm very jealous that you'll be in SG and able to go to Jaben, one of the only places in the world where you can audition customs before purchase.  Personally, I can't imagine a scenario whereby I'd choose UM over JH or Westone.  A big part of that has to due with my preferred sound signature, but even beyond that, the idea of paying the same for the Miracle as I would for the JH13pro, with it's two year warranty and knowing Harvey is behind the product, is an absolute gimme for a North American consumer. 
 
Really, the livewires trips are more like what I wish UM would try to create, but Livewires is almost the mirror opposite of UM...great product and philosophy, poor execution and customer support.  I know the OP wants to leave the Livewires discussion behind, but I'd thought a few weeks ago when there was supposedly "new management" that things would get better.... 
 
I've read that UM is more interested in focusing on the domestic market in asia, but that makes no business sense to me whatsoever.  Balanced armatures inherent weakness relative to other transducers is their bass, IMO.  So the idea of designing an IEM that seems to take that natural weakness and accentuates it strikes me as a bad idea.  If I really thought that Sam was capable of designing and building custom IEM's on the same level of Harvey or Westone/UE, I wouldn't have an issue with their pricing or philosophy.  Why haven't the triple.fi customs with 100 extra drivers blown up on head-fi?  
 
I think that the top custom IEM makers get away with a margin on their products that is ripe for an outside player to take a chunk out of, in the form of something like a UM or Livewires.  UM typifies to me a shift that we've observed in Chinese manufacturers over the last few years that's similar to what happened in Japan.  I think the new NA website is part of that crossover.  It's up to the consumer to decide if they think it's truly legit- but they make for an interesting business case study. 
 
In my perfect world, the Miracle would be $500 the Mage $300 and the Aero in the review $250 and their sound signature should be closer JH than Etymotic.  If anyone is seriously considering the $500 "Aero" over the $400 JH5pro, I don't know what to tell ya.          

Great post. I know you went back and retracted some of it later, but I wanted to throw my opinion in as this was beautifully worded.
 
JH is indeed a very tough mountain to overcome, at least for the potential NA market. Just his name alone brings with it enough industry clout to make you want to have a product that he is involved in. One of the few true "rockstar" type of personalities in the biz. Still, if all the competition does is try to copy his products, we will never see any interesting designs except for his.
 
A good example is found by looking to the speaker world. For a great price/performance product, we can choose from Axiom, PSB, Ascend, Paradigm, Aperion, NHT, Definitive, etc, most of whom have their own unique house sound. Likewise for ultra high end, where we can choose cost no object designs from Wilson, Eggleston, JM Labs/Focal, MBL, Genesis, Magico, Avalon, etc... Also each with their own distinct sound. I see no reason why the market for custom IEMs, or headphones in general, should be any different, except perhaps for the relatively smaller number of people in the target market. The good news there is that I believe headphones to be growing at a much higher rate than full size speakers... although I have no data to support that.
 
I agree with you 100% on LiveWires. I keep wanting them to succeed, but it has been several years of the same type of issues.
 
Although I haven't heard the JH5 myself, based on my experience with the UE4 and LiveWires dual driver models, I feel that the Aero is a step above them all.


 
Quote:

 
 
@project86: How much of a drop in quality are these compared to the Livewires and also how much less bass do they have? From what I got the Livewires have better extension, more bass and more revealing.

They are a step above the dual driver LiveWires. Compared to the triple driver Trips, they are similar in quality but different in execution. I could totally see some people preferring the Aero sound sig over the Trips (and therefore over the ES3X as well.


 
Quote:

The Miracle is supposed to be on par with the JH13 and Westone ES5 etc in terms of quality, aside from the fact that it has its own house sound. It doesn't sell as well as JHA and all in US, due to its location in China, but I believe that in Asia, UM sells more than JHA.

 
 
From what I can read, he said that the quality is on par with UE10, and infact its more lively, has more clarity and is faster than the UE10... which leads me to believe these are much better than the Livewires.
 

I really want to hear the Miracle and the ES5. Both of those, for me, have potential to be my new favorites.
 
As I said, I find the LiveWires Trips to be slightly more to my preference, but the Aero is definitely in the same league, and definitely superior to the dual driver LW model.
 

 

[rawrster]

Thanks. These definitely seem like something that could interest me although the Mage also interests me although I would like to know how different they are but unfortunately you can' answer that without having heard the Mage. The Miracle is a bit past my level of how much I would like to spend on an earphone and past my sanity limit as well. I was indeed referring to the Trips but you probably already knew that. I have no idea what their dual driver sounds like.

 

[Superfrag]

Quote:

I really want to hear the Miracle and the ES5. Both of those, for me, have potential to be my new favorites.
 
As I said, I find the LiveWires Trips to be slightly more to my preference, but the Aero is definitely in the same league, and definitely superior to the dual driver LW model.
 

 
Same here. I've had the pleasure of listening to the ES5's at CanJam, and they were really good. They had their own signature, more neutral sounding IMO than the JH. But the JH were great, great customs, very fun sounding yet having all the details etc, thats why I have the JH5.
 
As a college student I don't have the funds right now to go to the top, but I love my JH5's. I was going to go for the Mage, I had even emailed Stephen, but the problem was overall cost was going too high, to $720-$750 including everything, when I could get a great custom in JH5 in $399, and local support. Not to mention the impressions were free since I got them done by Frances Miranda, a JHA representative.
 

 

[Kunlun]

Hey Stephen,
 
one of the issues with customs is that people are asked to pay a premium price without the ability to hear for themselves the sound signature they will be receiving. Westone, UE, Future Sonics, JH, ASC and others market primarily to professional musicians, stadium and church audio professionals, etc., with audiophiles being a larger or smaller side market. UM doesn't have that professional market in the US or Europe, so you might have to be creative in marketing more specificially to audiophiles.
 
You could generate more business for yourself by making the universal fit demo models (like the ones project86 used for his review) available. An excellent way to do this would be to work with audiologists (and specialty audio stores) in major cities (New York, L.A., etc.) and make them UM dealers under you. Then, they could each have demo sets of UM customs so perspective customers could hear, see and touch for themselves the quality of UM products. I'm sure it would generate a lot of business. Look at Jaben in Singapore, people come to hear the best and they often walk away with a purchase. A better way to market customs is something to think about, surely.

 

[bungsai]

Great idea, for those in Australia, Unique Melody Australia will soon be up and running and have all four models available within our loaner program.
 
Quote:

Hey Stephen,
 
one of the issues with customs is that people are asked to pay a premium price without the ability to hear for themselves the sound signature they will be receiving. Westone, UE, Future Sonics, JH, ASC and others market primarily to professional musicians, stadium and church audio professionals, etc., with audiophiles being a larger or smaller side market. UM doesn't have that professional market in the US or Europe, so you might have to be creative in marketing more specificially to audiophiles.
 
You could generate more business for yourself by making the universal fit demo models (like the ones project86 used for his review) available. An excellent way to do this would be to work with audiologists (and specialty audio stores) in major cities (New York, L.A., etc.) and make them UM dealers under you. Then, they could each have demo sets of UM customs so perspective customers could hear, see and touch for themselves the quality of UM products. I'm sure it would generate a lot of business. Look at Jaben in Singapore, people come to hear the best and they often walk away with a purchase. A better way to market customs is something to think about, surely.

 

[roy_jones]

Bah!  I had a long and carefully thought-out reply to both project86 and stephenguoo that I lost when my computer froze. 

 
project86, you are very right about how interesting this market is from a business perspective.  What makes it particularly interesting is the technology aspect as the great equalizer- these companies are all basically using the same materials.  I'm too naive about their design to be able to estimate how much artistry is involved in the designing of these IEM's, but that's one barrier to entry that a new competitor does not have to worry about.       

 
Quote:

Unless of course you are already running at capacity and can't scale up.

Bingo.  Every one of the smaller one-man show operations like UM, Livewires and even JH showed signs of being overwhelmed at one point or another in the last year.  Maybe the guy from LIvewires should've raised his prices when he realized he didn't have the infrastructure to keep up with volume.  

 

[stephenguoo]

 
Quote:

Hey Stephen,
 
one of the issues with customs is that people are asked to pay a premium price without the ability to hear for themselves the sound signature they will be receiving. Westone, UE, Future Sonics, JH, ASC and others market primarily to professional musicians, stadium and church audio professionals, etc., with audiophiles being a larger or smaller side market. UM doesn't have that professional market in the US or Europe, so you might have to be creative in marketing more specificially to audiophiles.
 
You could generate more business for yourself by making the universal fit demo models (like the ones project86 used for his review) available. An excellent way to do this would be to work with audiologists (and specialty audio stores) in major cities (New York, L.A., etc.) and make them UM dealers under you. Then, they could each have demo sets of UM customs so perspective customers could hear, see and touch for themselves the quality of UM products. I'm sure it would generate a lot of business. Look at Jaben in Singapore, people come to hear the best and they often walk away with a purchase. A better way to market customs is something to think about, surely.

 
Hi Kunlun. 
 
I'm very grateful for your idea. I might try that marketing strategy in the near future. I guess US is different from Singapore in the pure difference of size. I lived in Singapore for 4 years, so I know how easy it is to travel within Singapore. But I guess the major cities in US will still be a great great idea. 
 

 

[project86]

Quote:

Great idea, for those in Australia, Unique Melody Australia will soon be up and running and have all four models available within our loaner program.
 

 

That's awesome! Such a program should prove very valuable to both UM and to potential customers.


 
Quote:

Bah!  I had a long and carefully thought-out reply to both project86 and stephenguoo that I lost when my computer froze. 

 
project86, you are very right about how interesting this market is from a business perspective.  What makes it particularly interesting is the technology aspect as the great equalizer- these companies are all basically using the same materials.  I'm too naive about their design to be able to estimate how much artistry is involved in the designing of these IEM's, but that's one barrier to entry that a new competitor does not have to worry about.       

 

Bingo.  Every one of the smaller one-man show operations like UM, Livewires and even JH showed signs of being overwhelmed at one point or another in the last year.  Maybe the guy from LIvewires should've raised his prices when he realized he didn't have the infrastructure to keep up with volume.  

Good points. Although everyone has access to the same parts, not everyone chooses the best ones for each particular application. Crossover design, such as it is for IEMs, is also a distinction. They do a lot of tuning through sound tube placement/diameter/length and acoustic dampers, as well as the traditional methods of passive crossover design. This makes results vary quite a bit despite similar drivers being used. Then of course you have the price and prestige distinction; a $1k+ custom from a well respected maker just has to sound better than a much cheaper alternative from some unknown company.... right? We all fall victim to this thinking to a certain degree, and it results in ever pricier models with more and more drivers. Note that I'm not picking on the JH13; I think it sounds brilliant. But more drivers and a higher price does not automatically make for a better product, as show by my expensive 5 driver E.A.R. Inc Z5 customs that sound inferior to most triple driver models in many aspects.


 
Quote:

 
 
Hi Kunlun. 
 
I'm very grateful for your idea. I might try that marketing strategy in the near future. I guess US is different from Singapore in the pure difference of size. I lived in Singapore for 4 years, so I know how easy it is to travel within Singapore. But I guess the major cities in US will still be a great great idea. 
 

That's something I hadn't really thought of, but it explains somewhat why there are great stores like Jaben overseas but not so much in the US. We are so spread out that it just wouldn't be viable except perhaps in the largest cities like New York and Los Angeles.
 

 

[Kunlun]

 

 

That's something I hadn't really thought of, but it explains somewhat why there are great stores like Jaben overseas but not so much in the US. We are so spread out that it just wouldn't be viable except perhaps in the largest cities like New York and Los Angeles.
 

Hardly.

 

 

[darknessproz]

Can someone comment on the TF10 signature vs the Aero? I have a TF10 right now that i'm planning to remold into a customs. But I'm also considering getting a Aero or Mage if their sound signature appeals to me.

 

[bungsai]

In my experience of the all the UM's ive tried.
 
Demo Marvel
Demo Aero
Demo Miracle
Custom Miracle
 
they all exhibit sparkly highs and forward vocals with a very punchy bass. Coming from the IE8, i the best i can describe the bass is sitting on top of a sub.  For the UM's bass is like being punched in the chest.  Solid, present, plenty of quantity, but the quality is great, you hear every hit.
 
As you go from the Marvel to the Miracle things get
1. Smoother 
2. Soundstage widens 
3. Presentation is bettered...Marvel does a great job...Miracle puts things exactly where you expect them to be.
4. Detail increases somewhat.
 
I was quite astounded at how good the Marvel sounds.

 

[buz]

You must be the first person who says that UM IEMs punch you in the chest... Most describe them as rather bass light? however, I am not quite sure whether being punched in the chest is less or more bass compared to sitting on top of a sub