[Auderoine]

Greetings all,
 
This is a somewhat long post, but I think it could be a fun thought-experiment even for the more veteran members to consider, so I hope you bear with me.  I've been reading through these boards for a few weeks now, and figured the community might be able to steer me in a better direction regarding a system build than I can using the various segmented pieces of information I've picked up off these forums.
 
My challenge is this: I'm looking to invest no more than $1200 into an audio setup that satisfies the following conditions/background:
 

1. My goal with this investment is to have a setup that is going to satisfy for me a while (at least a year, if not much longer) without needing additional tweaks/tuneups
2. I want something that doesn't have huge gaps in it (ie don't want a setup specialized for just classical listening), though I understand there are always tradeoffs
3. I'm a total rookie when it comes to audio components.  I've tried to inform myself and have read through many, many posts on these boards, but ultimately my actual experience is very limited (I own Sennheisser 485s at present).  So though I'm interested in DIY projects in the future as I'm technically inclined, with this initial $1200 I want to be able to buy components, plug them in, perhaps do some software tweaking, and be good to go.
4. I will in 100% of the cases be hooking this system up to a computer (most likely a desktop, though I have a laptop as well) as the music source (most of my music library is FLAC), and I don't see myself adding source components for a while
5. This PC is the only part of the 'system' I currently have, which has solid specs aside from the fact that there is no standalone soundcard, just using integrated mobo
6. No real need for portability of the system, plan on doing all serious listening at home in a comfortable spot, though I admit there is some value to being able to move the system with my laptop rather than my desktop
7. Music preferences: all over the place, primary 'genres' would include: trip-hop, downtempo, drum-and bass, post-rock.  Basically my most listened to music is percussion driven with an electronic/melodic flare.  However, given the range of things I listen to (classical, rock, hip-hop), something with versatility would be great.
8. Specific artists:

• Flying Lotus
• Bonobo
• Blockhead
• DJ Shadow
• Mono
• Digitalism
• Four Tet

 
Based on my reading thus far, if I had to build a system right now it would look like this:
 
ASUS Xonar Essence -> Matrix M-Stage or Woo 6 -> HD 650 (I'd have some spare cash with the M-stage, perhaps to recable the 650's with)
 
If any of you could offer your '$1200 rookie build', what would it be?
 
Lastly, I am aware that it would be very wise to try and go to a meet/demo out some of this equipment before dropping so much $$, and I agree.  I will try to do so before making an investment, but I'm still curious to hear the communities thoughts from your own experiences.
 
Many thanks!
 
PS I'll be in Portland over the holidays- any recommendations at shops to check out to demo gear?
PPS I didn't find any threads that were a good match to this one, but if I missed it please point me in the right direction
 

 

[eucariote]

After 10+ headphones, 4 dacs & 5 amps, the system I've settled on and listen to almost exclusively is a Lavry DA11dac/amp and HD600 headphones, which you could get within your budget used.  The sound of the HD600 is fairly soft in nature, so I don't use a tube amp with them (which softens them further).  The Lavry is among the best dacs available and I was quite surprised to find that the built-in headphone amp outperforms my tube amp with most of my headphones in detail and soundstage.  It mates particularly well with the signature of the HD600, which makes for a very well-balanced and lush sound that works well with most kinds of music and can be enjoyed for hours.
 

 

[jasonb]

well, i just spent $1200 ($1130 to be exact) on HeadRoom's Desktop Amp/DAC and Sennheiser HD650's.
 
this setup sounds great with electronic like downtempo and such, and also with rock and metal.
 
not a bad way to blow 1200 bucks.

 

[Sophonax]

My favorite, relatively-budget setup so far has been the Schiit Valhalla / Beyerdynamic DT880 (600 ohm).  Between those two that leaves you up to $600 to spend for a quality external DAC.
 
If you're not a basshead, the Valhalla / DT880 combo provides a wonderfully clean and dynamic sound, yet is surprisingly neutral overall, making it very versatile (it sounds good with pretty much any music I throw at it).  If there's any issues with this setup, it's that the DT880 can be just a little bit bright at times, so if you're particularly sensitive to treble you might want to stick with your original plan of the HD650.
 
If you do choose to stick with the HD650, I've read that the Schiit Asgard and the NuForce Icon HDP both have great synergy with that headphone (though I can't back that up with any experiences of my own).

 

[n3rdling]

With $1200 you're able to enter the high end via Stax.  If you don't mind waiting a while and doing your reading/research, check out the Stax thread in the high end subforum here.  It's about 1000 pages long but it is undoubtedly the most informative thread on headfi.  The signal to noise ratio on that thread is fantastic as well.  It can be daunting at first to understand but you'll get it after a while.  Most people don't like to do research and instead want to be spoon fed though.  I have almost never come across somebody who didn't enjoy Stax at meets or got a good Stax system and was dissatisfied.  They are very fast and detailed headphones with low distortion and great clarity.  At your budget, you could easily get something quite nice like one of the Stax Lambda headphones and a SRM-T1S amplifier or something similar.  At the price, I don't think this combo can be beat and there's not too much I haven't heard.  Some of these headphones are old, but they have a reputation for durability; I have some Stax headphones that are over 30 years old and still work perfectly.
 
I couldn't quit tell from reading your post, but do you not want to use a DAC?  If your computer has an optical out, typically people will use that and use an external digital to analog converter box to feed a nice signal into their amplifier.  You could get a nice vintage DAC on the used market on www.audiogon.com .  Don't buy into the hype machines here that feed all the new DACs/amps/headphones.  Most of these people are inexperienced and don't know how to properly compare equipment anyways.  Lots of the new stuff inevitably will be old designs rehashed and built into new boxes.  I would go with something proven over time.
 
$1200 can get you pretty far up the mountain, you just have to become familiar with your tastes and do research.  Spend even more time reading around here, finding posters who at least seem credible, and don't be afraid to ask questions.  You'll be happy in the end.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

 
Quote:

PS I'll be in Portland over the holidays- any recommendations at shops to check out to demo gear?
 
 

If that Portland is in Oregon you should go see 32 Ohm Audio.  An amazing headphone oriented audio store.  You'll get to hear lots of headphones, pretty much anything that will be mentioned in this thread.  And Oregon has no sales tax.

 

[Auderoine]

Thanks for all the feedback thus far, I'll be reading more into all the components that have been suggested.  Also 32ohm looks fantastic, thanks for the recommendation.
 
@n3rdling: I've made some progress on the Stax forum, but was a bit intimidated and felt it might not be the best idea for someone without any hi-fi experience.  I'll try and get deeper in if you think there is enough there to guide a total beginner through a build.  Regarding the DAC, I'll admit it's the component I've spend the least time researching, and based on a few posts in the ASUS Xonar thread thought that it (the Xonar) could be a substitute for a DAC.  If that's not the case, I'm certainly not opposed to using a DAC.  Good advice though about exploring older tech, I'll poke around audiogon and see what kind of DACs make sense.  My impression is that there isn't as much of a need to 'match' a DAC with a particular headphone (in comparison to amps, which seem crucial to get right), is this correct?
Quote:

I couldn't quit tell from reading your post, but do you not want to use a DAC?  If your computer has an optical out, typically people will use that and use an external digital to analog converter box to feed a nice signal into their amplifier.  You could get a nice vintage DAC on the used market on www.audiogon.com .  Don't buy into the hype machines here that feed all the new DACs/amps/headphones.  Most of these people are inexperienced and don't know how to properly compare equipment anyways.  Lots of the new stuff inevitably will be old designs rehashed and built into new boxes.  I would go with something proven over time.
 
$1200 can get you pretty far up the mountain, you just have to become familiar with your tastes and do research.  Spend even more time reading around here, finding posters who at least seem credible, and don't be afraid to ask questions.  You'll be happy in the end.

 

 

[mrsal]

well the setup i think ill go for is the nuforce hdp(?) dac amp and beyer 990's then later add the rsa xp-7 or hr2. a bit more than 1200, but i think it would work for my music (prog metal, techno, alternative, death metal stuff, ect)

 

[n3rdling]

Quote:

Thanks for all the feedback thus far, I'll be reading more into all the components that have been suggested.  Also 32ohm looks fantastic, thanks for the recommendation.
 
@n3rdling: I've made some progress on the Stax forum, but was a bit intimidated and felt it might not be the best idea for someone without any hi-fi experience.  I'll try and get deeper in if you think there is enough there to guide a total beginner through a build.  Regarding the DAC, I'll admit it's the component I've spend the least time researching, and based on a few posts in the ASUS Xonar thread thought that it (the Xonar) could be a substitute for a DAC.  If that's not the case, I'm certainly not opposed to using a DAC.  Good advice though about exploring older tech, I'll poke around audiogon and see what kind of DACs make sense.  My impression is that there isn't as much of a need to 'match' a DAC with a particular headphone (in comparison to amps, which seem crucial to get right), is this correct?
Quote:

I couldn't quit tell from reading your post, but do you not want to use a DAC?  If your computer has an optical out, typically people will use that and use an external digital to analog converter box to feed a nice signal into their amplifier.  You could get a nice vintage DAC on the used market on www.audiogon.com .  Don't buy into the hype machines here that feed all the new DACs/amps/headphones.  Most of these people are inexperienced and don't know how to properly compare equipment anyways.  Lots of the new stuff inevitably will be old designs rehashed and built into new boxes.  I would go with something proven over time.
 
$1200 can get you pretty far up the mountain, you just have to become familiar with your tastes and do research.  Spend even more time reading around here, finding posters who at least seem credible, and don't be afraid to ask questions.  You'll be happy in the end.

 

Kinda depends on who you ask, but I'd say yes that's definitely correct in my experience.  Any good DAC should make a headphone sound better, but amps can have some matching issues with different headphones IMO.  The ASUS probably isn't that bad, for some reason I thought you said you'd be using onboard motherboard sound. 
 

 

[Uncle Erik]

$1,200?

I'd pick up the Magnepan MMG for $600 and spend $50 or so for an old receiver. $200 for a used Sennheiser HD-600, $300 for one of the new Dynalos, and whatever is left for a modest DAC.

You'd get a pretty damn good intro to speakers and headphones.

 

[baka1969]

Hi.


Computer > DacMagic > Gilmore Lite (without the DPS to start) > HD650

I had that exact setup and have to say it really did the HD650 well. It was the best setup at that level I had hear from the Senn. It's an easy setup, it doesn't take up tons of space and is very versatile.


Going to 32Ohm is an excellent idea. I'd try the HD650, the AKG K70x, the Beyer 880 and maybe the Grado SR225(i) or RS2. Those will give you a great idea as to what sound signature you prefer overall. Good luck.

 

[Poetik]

Do you like closed or open headphones?
 
I would try going with a Nuforce HDP and HD650 or a Denon (D2000/5000/7000).  My main genres of listening are dnb, hip hop, rnb, downtempo, various anime ost's and such (Also I LOVE bonobo and actually just saw the group live a couple months ago which was awesome!!).  I've owned the beyerdynamic T1's, Sennheiser HD595/600/650/800's, and Denon D2000 / D7000 / LA7000's.  Out of all of those the most "versatile" phone for me has to be the Denons.  I don't really know how you like the bass in your music presented but open headphones can't really convey the sub notes like a closed headphone.  I did really enjoy downtempo with the HD650's though but as far as overall enjoyment across all musical genres the Denons just did it for me. 
 
I've been in your situation and after spending over $10,000 on audio gear I've settled on a Nuforce HDP and a modded D7000.  I'm not saying it's the best setup or anything but with the HDP you can't really go wrong especially in the price range.  Since this is your first real setup you don't really want to get the best stuff out there because you wouldn't really know how it compares to other things.  However if you are in portland oregon you should definitely give 32ohm a visit as I'm sure you'll find something you like there =)

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Quote:

$1,200?

I'd pick up the Magnepan MMG for $600 and spend $50 or so for an old receiver. $200 for a used Sennheiser HD-600, $300 for one of the new Dynalos, and whatever is left for a modest DAC.

You'd get a pretty damn good intro to speakers and headphones.

 
I would split the setup speakers/headphones myself, too.

I'd go for something better than just some "old receiver" to go with the MMGs...  There's too many bad ones out there, and many won't have enough power either.  But man, I'd like to try a pair of those.  I'm a vintage Infinity guy myself, but pure planars interest me too.
 
One of my favorite used amps is the Carver TFM-15CB - plenty of power for the MMGs, gain controls so you can go without preamp (perfect for using a computer+DAC as a source), and smooth, detailed sound.  Now, if your DAC has a volume control, an Adcom would be even cheaper and probably more reliable & easily serviced over time.  There's also lots of other reasonably priced quality used amps and receivers out there - like NAD, Marantz, Rotel, classic Yamahas, Denon stereo receivers from the '80s and '90s, and so on.  Under $150 would be plenty with some looking around.
 
HD 600s are excellent, especially for extended listening sessions.  There are plenty of other good (and better) phones out there, but they're just so well balanced that they serve well as an "only" pair of serious phones.
 
I'm probably going to catch some flak for this, but I think the power requirement for the HD 600s is overstated.  I spent a few hours comparing my uDAC (which many consider a bit underpowered for the HD 600s) to a Beyerdynamic A1 at the local shop (going to grad school in Sweden does have its perks, coming from no-fi Mid Michigan [Yes, I know Audio Advisor is only an hour and a half drive away from my hometown]).
 
After doing level matching by-ear (sorry, I don't have an SPL meter) and comparing their amplifiers both using FLACs through the uDAC's DAC (sent to the A1 and using the uDAC's amp) and the same CD in some Onkyo CD player (to the A1) (okay, maybe not the best player out there, but it's the store's normal source - so they must have at least some confidence in it), I could not tell the difference between them at any volume level.  The A1 may have been the tiniest bit warmer (ever so slightly more mid-bass), but I don't think it's something I could reliably tell between the two.  To be honest, I really expected the A1 to be clearly better than my little uDAC - but I really can't say that it is.
 
Now of course, some amps color the sound (for better or worse and to one degree or another), and others have different levels of and types of distortion which can be very audible.  But when you're comparing amps that do just that - amplify the signal as faithfully as possible - there's usually little difference between them as long as they have sufficient power.  Again, I'll probably make a few people angry by saying that.
 
Anyway, long story short is I run my HD 600s with my uDAC, as a substitute for my big Infinity speakers at home.  They don't sound anywhere near as good - I'm going to test the HD 800s at the shop (Yeah, they have a pair in stock!) and see if they get any closer - but they're as close as any other headphones I've tried have gotten.  They do an admirable job for being headphones (another one of those zingers that'll boil some kettles).  It's as portable a setup as you can get for that level of sound.
 
I did seriously look into the Hifimans - the HE-5 and HE-5LE (the newer ones weren't out when I was looking) - since they use the same driver tech that Infinity used for their tweeters and mids - planar magnetic drivers.  Eventually I decided the cost and amplifier requirements were too much for me for now - but they're something I would definitely look into as an option in-between the HD 600/AKG K701 and other sub-$500 phones and the HD 800 and other $1000+ headphones.
 
Of course, maybe closed headphones would be better for you and what you listen to.  I did seriously consider getting a pair of the Denons myself.  I've been quite happy with the bass of the HD 600s though - this coming from my Infinities, with their ungodly well controlled, loud, bass.  It's not perfect - Massive Attack's Angel off of Mezzanine shows their weakness in comparison (in both control and potential quantity), but I'm talking in relative terms here.  The HD 600s can still be jaw-rattling and ear-massaging.  I listen to a lot of NIN and Orbital (and trip hop), which definitely show off the bass they're capable of.  What I can say is that they are very well balanced - the bass, while strong and well controlled, never gets in the way of the music.  I can't say I listen to much pipe organ music or similar that goes all the way down to 20 Hz though.

 

[earerror]

I spent less than $1200 bucks when i bought my current setup, the HD650's with my amp. 
I have been happy with them. 

 

[tvrboy]

Uncle Erik is right, if you don't need privacy get speakers. I have several thousand dollars into my headphone system but would MUCH prefer speakers if I did not have to travel all the time. If you really want headphones, get Stax. If you buy used you can get a transformer box for a less than $200 and spend the rest on a 507, LNS, 404LE, or whatever. If you don't want to do any research you can get a 2170 system for less than $700 brand new. That is what I would get (plus some kind of DAC) if I had your budget and was buying new.