RAZ's TOTL review and rambles thread... could it be.... alive?

[mvvRAZ]

Wait sorry I just noticed I said the soundstage is matched—

correction: width goes to A18S, depth goes to the Elysium

 

[twister6]

EE Odin closing thoughts

Well, I suppose this will have to be said at some point, so let's get it out of the way. I've spoken to EE and decided to return my Odin

After further listening and also trying it with the Hugo 2 to see if that adjusts the signature to what I find enjoyable, I found that the upper midrange is something I simply cannot deal with. I was wondering if this is just my perception of it or if there is something else going on here, so I went on Crinacle's graph tool and compared it to a few IEMs I've heard recently, or some that I generally enjoy and use as a reference for a tonality that appeals to me, and the Odin absolutely smashed their upper midrange in terms of raw quantity (around 2k more specifically).

An IEM who's upper midrange I found to be quite overdone is the MMR Homunculus - below is a graph of how the Homunculus compares to the Odin:



The Homunculus (orange) peaks slightly higher around 3k, but the Odin (green) still has more upper mids all the way before that. It doesn't help either than the presentation of the midrange is rather cold and thin which makes it extremely unpleasant to listen to.

I think a good track that exemplifies that is K.Flay's High Enough - when she goes "I'm already high enough" the Odin feels like it bursts through my eardrums with the amount of upper midrange quantity.

I'm also not a big fan of the overall thinness of the midrange in relation to the warmer and slower sub-bass, which creates a partial incoherence to my ears.

I'll be fully honest here and say that I tried to Stockholm myself into loving the Odin really hard as EE really were extremely kind to me and I feel bad about disliking a product they've developed for so long and were so passionate about. Ultimately though, I have to be honest about what I heard as I have been in the past.

Either way, as I'm returning the unit I'll only be making some small comparisons in the future based off memory, but the Odin is an IEM that I simply cannot get behind or recommend

Michael, to add to this since we had a long discussion with you this morning (my EST time ), you only tried Odin with Socrates and Iliad and other Eletech cables. You never tried it with included PWA 1960 cable. Without a doubt, we hear thing differently, and when you are paying full price for a kilobuck IEM, it has to check all the boxes, at at least most of them. But from my experience of testing Odin with both Socrates and Iliad, it was not a good pair up since bass was attenuated and mids were more forward. I don't expect miracles in your case , but if you get a chance, please try it with a stock cable once you get 4.4mm adapter. In my Eletech Socrates review, pair up with Legend X was excellent, to my ears of course, but with Odin it just didn't work. Maybe it's the whole formula of Odin 3 ohm impedance and new sync-X crossover design vs cable impedance and source output impedance, but Socrates pair up just didn't work for me in this particular case.

 

[mvvRAZ]

Michael, to add to this since we had a long discussion with you this morning (my EST time ), you only tried Odin with Socrates and Iliad and other Eletech cables. You never tried it with included PWA 1960 cable. Without a doubt, we hear thing differently, and when you are paying full price for a kilobuck IEM, it has to check all the boxes, at at least most of them. But from my experience of testing Odin with both Socrates and Iliad, it was not a good pair up since bass was attenuated and mids were more forward. I don't expect miracles in your case , but if you get a chance, please try it with a stock cable once you get 4.4mm adapter. In my Eletech Socrates review, pair up with Legend X was excellent, to my ears of course, but with Odin it just didn't work. Maybe it's the whole formula of Odin 3 ohm impedance and new sync-X crossover design vs cable impedance and source output impedance, but Socrates pair up just didn't work for me in this particular case.

I’ll be able to get a few hours in with that on Monday but I have a few issues with that concept as I’ve discussed with @doctorjuggles
- for one, I don’t think a cable has ever been able to make or break an IEM - any differences I’ve experienced have always been pretty supple at best
- the Hugo2 was the DACamp that was recommended with the Odin, and when I tried the pairing he things I already disliked only got twice as unpleasant
- the Stormbreaker is only offered in 2.5 and an adapter is not included to 3.5 (even though it is meant to be used with the Hugo 2) - if the cable is absolutely essential I’d at least offer it in 3.5, as the current option is pretty much native to one DAP brand on the market
- my experience with the Socrates was very different from yours, and a few people I’ve spoken to have actually recommended the pairing with the Odin as it added some warmth and texture to the already very cold midrange of the Odin

All of this aside though, I think my sensitivity to the upper midrange frequencies might also have something to do with me not enjoying the Odin at all.

ultimately though, I really agree with what you said a while back about us reviewers, users and whatnot being data points, with each one sharing some honest feedback on their experiences in the IEM industry

 

[CL14715]

Did I miss something? I could've sworn there was a post a bit ago that displayed a mass of cables while developing the Odin. Then it was determined that the included stormbreaker aka PWA 1960 was the best pairing with the Odin, so good in fact, Dean Vang included it as the only offering. Hey, what would that guy know though!? Then they came out and explicitly said that it was the best cable pairing with it after displaying the order of magnitude in cables they tested with it.

Following that you go and poo-poo on my general and honest thoughts of Odin being overall great, citing it'll hurt business and flood the market with second-hand units. Then you go and post you're returning it because of unforgiving mid-range... when you haven't even used the correct, supplied cable it was tuned with?!?!? Is this real life??? How on God's wonderful planet is that honest feedback?

Also please provide sources of who has the Odin and recommends the Socrates over the PWA 1960. Since apparently you know a few.

 

[mvvRAZ]

Did I miss something? I could've sworn there was a post a bit ago that displayed a mass of cables while developing the Odin. Then it was determined that the included stormbreaker aka PWA 1960 was the best pairing with the Odin, so good in fact, Dean Vang included it as the only offering. Hey, what would that guy know though!? Then they came out and explicitly said that it was the best cable pairing with it after displaying the order of magnitude in cables they tested with it.

Following that you go and poo-poo on my general and honest thoughts of Odin being overall great, citing it'll hurt business and flood the market with second-hand units. Then you go and post you're returning it because of unforgiving mid-range... when you haven't even used the correct, supplied cable it was tuned with?!?!? Is this real life??? How on God's wonderful planet is that honest feedback?

Also please provide sources of who has the Odin and recommends the Socrates over the PWA 1960. Since apparently you know a few.

Boy oh boy did I offend someone

as I stated in the post you quoted, I really did try to persuade myself that what I was hearing was something I was enjoying, and yes, that does make what I posted in the EE thread wishful thinking

There is no way I can use the stock cable for the time being as I simply do not posses a source or adapter that is in the stock cable configuration (2.5). I also summed up my thoughts about the stock cable, and cables in general in the post above

Unless the stock cables makes some insane U turn on the Odin’s signature and qualitative properties, I don’t see my impressions changing in any way or form

 

[aaf evo]

I haven’t heard the Odin, I’ll get to hear it next week when mine arrives.

While I do agree that maybe Raz hasn’t heard the Odin in its full potential, I also agree that cables don’t alter the SQ significantly enough to where if there’s something about the IEM he doesn’t like to a substantial level that I just can’t see the supplied cable fixing that.

That’s coming from an ex hardcore cable roller

There’s no IEM out there that’ll please everyone. I’ll swear up and down that the erlkonig is the greatest thing since the wheel /s, but I know quite a few people that don’t find it anything special.

 

[CL14715]

Boy oh boy did I offend someone

as I stated in the post you quoted, I really did try to persuade myself that what I was hearing was something I was enjoying, and yes, that does make what I posted in the EE thread wishful thinking

There is no way I can use the stock cable for the time being as I simply do not posses a source or adapter that is in the stock cable configuration (2.5). I also summed up my thoughts about the stock cable, and cables in general in the post above

Unless the stock cables makes some insane U turn on the Odin’s signature and qualitative properties, I don’t see my impressions changing in any way or form

Offended? No, vindicated actually. Glad to know my impressions even though much disputed by you, were at least from an honest perspective and under the intended circumstances. You're entitled to your opinion without it offending me.

If you're reviewing the Odin, then review the Odin... not Eletech. It's hard to not recognize immediately what's going on when you have not 1 but 5 of their cables in your signature. You were about to write off the IEM entirely and give a perspective with no basis... You're testing and reviewing an IEM and putting out a recommendation with a cable that doesn't come with the IEM... Others who trust your judgment in their purchase decisions should be offended, not me.

I missed the Socrates references you mentioned...

 

[subguy812]

I have only heard two people that have said the Erlkonig didn't do it for them, Michael being one of them. It won't agree with everyone.

ODIN won't agree with everyone, but I do believe in hearing all IEMs as they were tuned, meaning tips and cables.

Quick listen impressions are an entirely different thing when dealing with DD and estats. Zipping my lip.

I know Michael doesn't believe in burn-in but does believe in cables, especially Electech.

This is his specific thread so I won't say anything more than I don't hear it the same.

 

[toaster]

Offended? No, vindicated actually. Glad to know my impressions even though much disputed by you, were at least from an honest perspective and under the intended circumstances. You're entitled to your opinion without it offending me.

If you're reviewing the Odin, then review the Odin... not Eletech. It's hard to not recognize immediately what's going on when you have not 1 but 5 of their cables in your signature. You were about to write off the IEM entirely and give a perspective with no basis... You're testing and reviewing an IEM and putting out a recommendation with a cable that doesn't come with the IEM... Others who trust your judgment in their purchase decisions should be offended, not me.

I missed the Socrates references you mentioned...

Why are you coming to a thread that raz made to share his opinions, to blame him for sharing his opinions?

Kinda confused about what you’re trying to accomplish here...this isn’t the ee thread.

 

[mvvRAZ]

Strap in ladies and gents - I now have access to a real keyboard, the gloves are off

Offended? No, vindicated actually. Glad to know my impressions even though much disputed by you, were at least from an honest perspective and under the intended circumstances. You're entitled to your opinion without it offending me.

If you're reviewing the Odin, then review the Odin... not Eletech. It's hard to not recognize immediately what's going on when you have not 1 but 5 of their cables in your signature. You were about to write off the IEM entirely and give a perspective with no basis... You're testing and reviewing an IEM and putting out a recommendation with a cable that doesn't come with the IEM... Others who trust your judgment in their purchase decisions should be offended, not me.

I missed the Socrates references you mentioned...

I'm not reviewing the Odin to review the Odin. I purchased the Odin and was planning on reviewing it, but as it really didn't appeal to me and I thought it had some significant issues, I decided to spare my review.

As to the stock cable, 2.5 only, I don't have anything 2.5 - BUT - if you'd like to donate an SP2000 to me I'd gladly review it on the stock cable for you (mind you I ordered an AK SR25 on Friday just to give you confirmation that cable don't in fact make a night and day difference)

Now, as to Eletech - they're all basically free samples in the sense that I paid retail for them but didn't drive 9 hours to get them. I shall amend my error now and drive around my house until 7am tomorrow to amend my mistake.

Kidding aside, I'm not even pretending to not be Eletech biased. It's a company who's products I love deeply and hence choose to put on my IEMs

I ain't sending you any references since I got nothing to prove to you.

I have only heard two people that have said the Erlkonig didn't do it for them, Michael being one of them. It won't agree with everyone.

ODIN won't agree with everyone, but I do believe in hearing all IEMs as they were tuned, meaning tips and cables.

Quick listen impressions are an entirely different thing when dealing with DD and estats. Zipping my lip.

I know Michael doesn't believe in burn-in but does believe in cables, especially Electech.

This is his specific thread so I won't say anything more than I don't hear it the same.

These aren't quick impressions, these are 2.5 straight days with the Odin in which I got around 22 hours of playtime just by estimate. I do apologise if I cannot complete the very realistic standard of yours of spending an year and a half, witnessing two blood moons and kissing a mermaid before I review something.

I'm also kinda surprised by your cable comments, because in another chat, which you are a part of, I clearly stated that I consider cables around 90-95% vanity, and 5-10% fine tuning.

 

[CL14715]

Pfffft... are you serious

Regardless of what justification you provided, you still reviewed the Odin. Well, half-attempted to.

I have nothing against eletch and am sure they make fine cables. The Odin wasn't specifically tuned with them though.

What does a road trip have to do with anything? I would've just as happily went home empty-handed with the knowledge and experience to make a purchase, just like everyone else. That was a kind gesture on their part in addition to a retailer that's beyond gracious. I paid full retail for my Hero and Odin as well. Did you have a point here or are you reaching?

I don't want anything from you, really. You came at me claiming I was going to do damage by spreading positivity in the fact that Odin checked my boxes and will for the majority. A statement I still standby today. Then come to find out you post your dramatic return of Odin due to a mid-range disagreement... On second thought, I do want something from you. A little integrity for the ones who trust your reviews and buy into your credibility. This isn't about Empire Ears, the Odin, or anything product related. This is about you being a hypocrite.

BRB I'm gonna go put 28 inch wheels on a new corvette and tell everyone it rides like $h*t from the factory.

 

[mvvRAZ]

Pfffft... are you serious

Regardless of what justification you provided, you still reviewed the Odin. Well, half-attempted to.

I have nothing against eletch and am sure they make fine cables. The Odin wasn't specifically tuned with them though.

What does a road trip have to do with anything? I would've just as happily went home empty-handed with the knowledge and experience to make a purchase, just like everyone else. That was a kind gesture on their part in addition to a retailer that's beyond gracious. I paid full retail for my Hero and Odin as well. Did you have a point here or are you reaching?

I don't want anything from you, really. You came at me claiming I was going to do damage by spreading positivity in the fact that Odin checked my boxes and will for the majority. A statement I still standby today. Then come to find out you post your dramatic return of Odin due to a mid-range disagreement... On second thought, I do want something from you. A little integrity for the ones who trust your reviews and buy into your credibility. This isn't about Empire Ears, the Odin, or anything product related. This is about you a hypocrite.

BRB I'm gonna go put 28 inch wheels on a new corvette and tell everyone it rides like $h*t from the factory.

Yia buddy it's called shilling. Anyhow, you do you I'll do me. I'll manage my relationship with those who read my impressions and find them useful

however

If I do decide to hire a PR manager I shall most certainly let you know and you can submit a CV, currently not hiring however

also

If you believe that a cable has that much of an effect on an IEM, I think you're in for a rough ride.

This has been loads of fun we should do it again sometime

 

[CL14715]

Yia buddy it's called shilling. Anyhow, you do you I'll do me. I'll manage my relationship with those who read my impressions and find them useful

however

If I do decide to hire a PR manager I shall most certainly let you know and you can submit a CV, currently not hiring however

also

If you believe that a cable has that much of an effect on an IEM, I think you're in for a rough ride.

This has been loads of fun we should do it again sometime

Shilling? Really? That's the best you have?

Shucks my man, you won't need a PR manager if you keep putting out misleading reviews.

Well despite your previous intentions of giving it a chance with the intended cable, you've revealed your hand it seems. Based on the language you're using, it seems fairly likely that when it does correct the mid-range, you'll try to maintain your pride and deny it anyways.

I enjoyed myself as well, I appreciate you providing your thread for some healthy discussion. Maybe I too shall start a thread and call it the, "No BS reviews" thread. It'll be a lovely place where all submitted reviews will be transparent and conducted as intended. Any variables from the control during such a review will be listed to inform the readers. I'd tell you to stop by sometime buuuut yeaaa.. people will want the truth there. Hey! you've always got this thread.

 

[mvvRAZ]

Shilling? Really? That's the best you have?

Shucks my man, you won't need a PR manager if you keep putting out misleading reviews.

Well despite your previous intentions of giving it a chance with the intended cable, you've revealed your hand it seems. Based on the language you're using, it seems fairly likely that when it does correct the mid-range, you'll try to maintain your pride and deny it anyways.

I enjoyed myself as well, I appreciate you providing your thread for some healthy discussion. Maybe I too shall start a thread and call it the, "No BS reviews" thread. It'll be a lovely place where all submitted reviews will be transparent and conducted as intended. Any variables from the control during such a review will be listed to inform the readers. I'd tell you to stop by sometime buuuut yeaaa.. people will want the truth there. Hey! you've always got this thread.

You're the hero this forums needs but doesn't deserve. Liberate the people from my evil influence

 

[subguy812]

Strap in ladies and gents - I now have access to a real keyboard, the gloves are off

These aren't quick impressions, these are 2.5 straight days with the Odin in which I got around 22 hours of playtime just by estimate. I do apologise if I cannot complete the very realistic standard of yours of spending an year and a half, witnessing two blood moons and kissing a mermaid before I review something.

I'm also kinda surprised by your cable comments, because in another chat, which you are a part of, I clearly stated that I consider cables around 90-95% vanity, and 5-10% fine tuning.

Michael there is no need to strap on gloves with me, I didn't come here to stir the pot. I quoted the part of this response in which you were responding to me, to make it more simple, the rest of your quote was directed at some one else.

I did not come at you argumentatively, I merely said I don't agree with your take on ODIN and stated facts, and will reiterate those facts again for you. You didn't like Erlkonig, you said it bored you, you don't agree with burn-in and do believe in cables. Vanity or not you like cables. Your initial impressions, you wrote 2 days ago, came within a couple of hours of you hearing ODIN. That is quick considering you heard ODIN and listened to Balmung and then had time to write your initial impressions, all in a couple of hours. Folks other than me told you the ODIN needs time, but it is your perogative to write as you see fit.

You can also swap cables and ear tips the moment you open the package, but I do feel you need to at least give something a chance as the manufacturer meant for it to be heard before you write impressions. It was tuned with the 1960 and Final E tips.

The other thread I am a part of has nothing to do with anything here. Not all of the 56 participants agree on everything, all of the time, but it is civil, as was my post here.

I have chronicled my thoughts on ODIN in the EE thread, it hasn't all been rainbows and unicorns, but it is a work in progress. Only two reviewers have had the ODIN for more than a couple of weeks.

Honestly, none of this drama needs to be directed at me. That is why I said, this is your thread and I respect that. Just because I hear things differently, and said that I don't agree with your ODIN thoughts, you take the gloves off. I am not the only that doesn't agree with your thoughts.

I do want to say, the you said Jack was good to you, but then you make a statement such as the one below. It isn't cool to say a whole bunch of people will be disappointed. Not the sort of thing you say about a person's company, you say has treated you well. It will sort itself out when more of the public hears the product, allow that to play out on its own.

"Ultimately it's not in the interest of Empire Ears for a whole bunch of people to buy an Odin based on the hype, be disappointed, and flood the forums with second hand units. IMHO the most optimal situation is where the sales aren't ultra disproportionately high, but the people who have them are happy"

Obviously, disagreeing with you was not welcome here. Sorry if I offended you in your own thread.