[project86]

I personally like the top CIEMs (such as Noble K10, 8C, etc) just as much as my top full sized headphones (such as HD800, HE-6, SR-007, etc). They are different in some ways, not necessarily better or worse. They also have very different requirements... amps that do great with HE-6 likely won't be so good for sensitive CIEMs, and vice versa. 

 

[bobby12]

"Here at Noble we believe that everyone should have the opportunity to demo our products in the comfort on their own home using their own equipment. Therefore, we afford users 15 day demo period beginning on the date of delivery. Returned products must be received in like-new condition with all accessories and a 20% restocking fee will be assessed. Customers are also expected to pay for return shipping back to Noble."

You have to pay 20% plus shipping if you want to demo them? Am I reading that correctly?

 

[fzman]

"Here at Noble we believe that everyone should have the opportunity to demo our products in the comfort on their own home using their own equipment. Therefore, we afford users 15 day demo period beginning on the date of delivery. Returned products must be received in like-new condition with all accessories and a 20% restocking fee will be assessed. Customers are also expected to pay for return shipping back to Noble."

You have to pay 20% plus shipping if you want to demo them? Am I reading that correctly?

 
Seems like you are.  If you buy something at a store, you have to physically bring it back to return it -- same thing here.  Besides, would you pay Noble full price for a pair you knew had been auditioned and returned?   There is a cost associated with giving a customer a "trial".  It's far from clear that that cost/risk should be borne exclusively by the seller. I'd say that losing 20% beats losing 100%.  

 

[peareye]

"Here at Noble we believe that everyone should have the opportunity to demo our products in the comfort on their own home using their own equipment. Therefore, we afford users 15 day demo period beginning on the date of delivery. Returned products must be received in like-new condition with all accessories and a 20% restocking fee will be assessed. Customers are also expected to pay for return shipping back to Noble."

You have to pay 20% plus shipping if you want to demo them? Am I reading that correctly?

I could see 10%....that's it!
 
That means the item is paid for by the 10th demo ....and that's at FULL LIST...not actual cost....
 
Count me out guys

 

[steste1122]

  I personally like the top CIEMs (such as Noble K10, 8C, etc) just as much as my top full sized headphones (such as HD800, HE-6, SR-007, etc). They are different in some ways, not necessarily better or worse. They also have very different requirements... amps that do great with HE-6 likely won't be so good for sensitive CIEMs, and vice versa. 

I read on Nobles facebook page that you will soon be reviewing the Noble 5c.  Not to rush you or anything, but I hope to read it soon.  Next month I get home from Afghanistan, and one of the ciem I am considering is the 5c.  As there is only one review out there for the the 5s, your review would certainly help with my final decision.

 

[FullCircle]

I do believe project 86 is reviewing the 5c+r

5c = acrylic
R = additional reference option

= 6 drivers per side contained in the ciem housing. One 5 driver cluster and 1 reference driver cluster. There is an a/b switch on the face plate which allows the user to select either the 5 driver cluster or the one driver reference driver.

Essentially it could be said, a ciem with r option, is really two ciems in one ciem

Cheers

 

[bobby12]

Seems like you are.  If you buy something at a store, you have to physically bring it back to return it -- same thing here.  Besides, would you pay Noble full price for a pair you knew had been auditioned and returned?   There is a cost associated with giving a customer a "trial".  It's far from clear that that cost/risk should be borne exclusively by the seller. I'd say that losing 20% beats losing 100%.  

Yeah, but the thing is they can lend it out many times. 1964 ears charges shipping only which is more reasonable. Charging nothing for a demo besides shipping could actually boost sales because it means you'll get more buyers. Most people aren't willing to jump in blindly, and some aren't lucky enough to go to those meets, and you'd lose most of those types of people.
There's a difference between a demo unit and a new unit meant for sale. Don't compare the two.

 

[kova4a]

Yeah, but the thing is they can lend it out many times. 1964 ears charges shipping only which is more reasonable. Charging nothing for a demo besides shipping could actually boost sales because it means you'll get more buyers. Most people aren't willing to jump in blindly, and some aren't lucky enough to go to those meets, and you'd lose most of those types of people.
There's a difference between a demo unit and a new unit meant for sale. Don't compare the two.

 I personally am totally against that mentality some people have that retailers are always obliged to accept returns and that it's fine for the customer not to pay anything. It's exactly how you are thinking  -  "You have to pay 20% plus shipping just to demo them" - yeah, you have coz Noble is not running some kinda of international audio gear demo program - they are into the business of selling units and if you are a reviewer with enough experience then you might receive a demo unit.
IMO once you've used a product it's not a brand new product anymore - it's a used one ... period. Just because a lot of retailers allow it that doesn't mean that they don't lose money over it. For instance, if you go to a store to buy new headphones the open-box items will always have a lower price and I expect it to be at least 15%, and while the customer who returned that product doesn't realize it, the seller is losing money because of that - first because he had to lower the price, second because an employee of his is getting paid to put that item back into storage, to go through the inventory and list it and stuff like that. 
So you might be thinking - "I should be paying only the return shipping and that's fair." but then who is paying the employee who packed your package and shipped it, who is covering the price of the shipping of the product to you, who is paying to the employee who retrieves the returned package, cleans it, gets new tips for it, handles the paperwork and returns it to the storage etc. 
Now, whether a 20% fee is justified is another matter but it's definitely not like the mentality  "I just pay the return shipping and we're even"

 

[bobby12]

 I personally am totally against that mentality some people have that retailers are always obliged to accept returns and that it's fine for the customer not to pay anything. It's exactly how you are thinking  -  "You have to pay 20% plus shipping just to demo them" - yeah, you have coz Noble is not running some kinda of international audio gear demo program - they are into the business of selling units and if you are a reviewer with enough experience then you might receive a demo unit.
IMO once you've used a product it's not a brand new product anymore - it's a used one ... period. Just because a lot of retailers allow it that doesn't mean that they don't lose money over it. For instance, if you go to a store to buy new headphones the open-box items will always have a lower price and I expect it to be at least 15%, and while the customer who returned that product doesn't realize it, the seller is losing money because of that - first because he had to lower the price, second because an employee of his is getting paid to put that item back into storage, to go through the inventory and list it and stuff like that. 
So you might be thinking - "I should be paying only the return shipping and that's fair." but then who is paying the employee who packed your package and shipped it, who is covering the price of the shipping of the product to you, who is paying to the employee who retrieves the returned package, cleans it, gets new tips for it, handles the paperwork and returns it to the storage etc. 
Now, whether a 20% fee is justified is another matter but it's definitely not like the mentality  "I just pay the return shipping and we're even"

You're misunderstanding. Demo units are like display units. They put them out expecting customers to use it for free. Go to any audio store and they won't charge you a thing for testing an already used item. Go to best buy and they wont charge you for trying out the laptops. Go to Verizon and they won't charge you for using the phones. They aren't creating a new product each time, they're reusing the same one, and when they are done with it, they sell it off as a used product to reclaim their losses, which is very minimal. Those losses were required to gain profit though since most customers aren't going to blindly jump it like I said earlier. 1964 ears makes you pay for shipping both ways. They charge $15 and expect you to ship it back at your expense. I know that their shipping doesn't cost $15 so there's some fees in there which is fair. Receiving it, getting new tips, shipping it again doesn't take much work. They aren't making a new product. 20% plus shipping both ways isn't reasonable and that's why they have much less customers, and can afford much less staff. It's a shame that they don't have a marketing expert. They do make good products, but they don't know how to put it out there much efficiently.
I was told to avoid this thread because there are a ton of fanboys. Looks like they were right lol.

Edit: actually they shouldn't have any losses if they sell it off as a used product. Even if they sell it off used for a 30% discount, the truth is they would probably profit still, just not as much. Website is poorly designed also. They need a better programmer.

 

[kova4a]

You're misunderstanding. Demo units are like display units. They put them out expecting customers to use it for free. Go to any audio store and they won't charge you a thing for testing an already used item. Go to best buy and they wont charge you for trying out the laptops. Go to Verizon and they won't charge you for using the phones. They aren't creating a new product each time, they're reusing the same one, and when they are done with it, they sell it off as a used product to reclaim their losses, which is very minimal. Those losses were required to gain profit though since most customers aren't going to blindly jump it like I said earlier. 1964 ears makes you pay for shipping both ways. They charge $15 and expect you to ship it back at your expense. I know that their shipping doesn't cost $15 so there's some fees in there which is fair. Receiving it, getting new tips, shipping it again doesn't take much work. They aren't making a new product. 20% plus shipping both ways isn't reasonable and that's why they have much less customers, and can afford much less staff. It's a shame that they don't have a marketing expert. They do make good products, but they don't know how to put it out there much efficiently.
I was told to avoid this thread because there are a ton of fanboys. Looks like they were right lol.

Edit: actually they shouldn't have any losses if they sell it off as a used product. Even if they sell it off used for a 30% discount, the truth is they would probably profit still, just not as much. Website is poorly designed also. They need a better programmer.

Nah, you're misunderstanding me. We're talking about completely different things. I just mentioned the store returns as an example of sellers losing money. It's one thing to hear an already open, sitting there for everyone to hear unit and another to buy a brand new closed product in the store and then return it. And running an online international business is a different thing altogether. First, you have a lot higher expenses due to shipping costs, second you can't just send demo units across the world  to everyone who wants one -  I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of head-fi members for one who wouldn't mind hearing a N6 for free but that will cost Noble a ton of money. And that isn't only applicable to Noble and audio gear. For instance I'm in Europe - I don't have bestbuy or verizon, so I can't go to the store to test their offerings  - that by your logic is unacceptable and makes them bad sellers without proper marketing strategy, doesn't it? 
And that fanboy remark is way out of line and childish. 

 

[bobby12]

Nah, you're misunderstanding me. We're talking about completely different things. I just mentioned the store returns as an example of sellers losing money. It's one thing to hear an already open, sitting there for everyone to hear unit and another to buy a brand new closed product in the store and then return it. And running an online international business is a different thing altogether. First, you have a lot higher expenses due to shipping costs, second you can't just send demo units across the world  to everyone who wants one -  I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of head-fi members for one who wouldn't mind hearing a N6 for free but that will cost Noble a ton of money. And that isn't only applicable to Noble and audio gear. For instance I'm in Europe - I don't have bestbuy or verizon, so I can't go to the store to test their offerings  - that by your logic is unacceptable and makes them bad sellers without proper marketing strategy, doesn't it? 
And that fanboy remark is way out of line and childish. 

There's a reason why cellular companies in the US are much more profitable. Many reason.
Anyway, they aren't "opening" a new one every time. Plus it isn't free. You pay for shipping and most people wouldn't want to pay a dime for it unless they are interest. Noble Audio has staff located in the US, Europe, UK, and China. Plus I never said they had to ship internationally. You pulled that out of your end.
You clearly don't understand the marketing point of it. 1964 ears does. Tell me why they get more customers than jh audio, unique melody and noble audio even though they are fairly new? They have a better strategy offering demo units, good support, overall quality in their products, faster turnaround times, and cheaper and better value.
Edit: if you still don't understand, you have to open a new product to share it. Display units are no different. They don't lose profit from display units, or demo units, they gain profit in the long run.

 

[rawrster]

I personally like the top CIEMs (such as Noble K10, 8C, etc) just as much as my top full sized headphones (such as HD800, HE-6, SR-007, etc). They are different in some ways, not necessarily better or worse. They also have very different requirements... amps that do great with HE-6 likely won't be so good for sensitive CIEMs, and vice versa. 

I agree. While my ciems and full sized do serve different purposes I consider an iem a better bang for buck. You can get a good ciem and plug it into your phone and call it a day. With full sized you need a dac and amp and that usually at least doubles the headphones cost so you are going up in price.

I find comparing the two similar to comparing a car and a motorcycle. They both do the same thing in getting you to a destination but the way it is done is completely different.

 

[Ivabign]

  Nah, you're misunderstanding me. We're talking about completely different things. I just mentioned the store returns as an example of sellers losing money. It's one thing to hear an already open, sitting there for everyone to hear unit and another to buy a brand new closed product in the store and then return it. And running an online international business is a different thing altogether. First, you have a lot higher expenses due to shipping costs, second you can't just send demo units across the world  to everyone who wants one -  I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of head-fi members for one who wouldn't mind hearing a N6 for free but that will cost Noble a ton of money. And that isn't only applicable to Noble and audio gear. For instance I'm in Europe - I don't have bestbuy or verizon, so I can't go to the store to test their offerings  - that by your logic is unacceptable and makes them bad sellers without proper marketing strategy, doesn't it? 
And that fanboy remark is way out of line and childish. 

What I think the OP is trying to say is that it is a risk spending $1000 on an item that cannot be returned without a large (and 20% + shipping both ways is large) hit. So he is ruminating on how a company could make it easier for the customer to hear it, while still being fair to the company. 1964 offers demos - you state a company can't afford to send 100's of demos out to people - that's a spurious argument. 1964 doesn't create a new demo for every time one is requested - I'm sure you have to wait for one to be available. And they make sure the shipping is borne by the prospective buyer. You seem to think it is proper to charge a prospective customer for the honor of just hearing a certain IEM (see bolded) - there I don't agree with you. This industry is a very subjective one - not everybody is going to hear the same thing - or like the same thing. We know Noble would rather not send out a demo - their belief is that to hear it is to love it - and for most that is probably true. But at the same time it can hamstring growth - but growth is not always a good thing (read: Roxanne rollout) But this disdain for those who would like to hear what they are buying before dropping a wad of cash is troubling. And lastly - you don't have a Verizon store or a Best Buy store near you? Are you on an island? Incarcerated? Locked in a basement? I'm fairly certain there is a cellular phone shop and an electronics store close by you.  In your argument you make valid points. I don't know why you need to resort to obstructionism. 

 

[kova4a]

There's a reason why cellular companies in the US are much more profitable. Many reason.
Anyway, they aren't "opening" a new one every time. Plus it isn't free. You pay for shipping and most people wouldn't want to pay a dime for it unless they are interest. Noble Audio has staff located in the US, Europe, UK, and China. Plus I never said they had to ship internationally. You pulled that out of your end.
You clearly don't understand the marketing point of it. 1964 ears does. Tell me why they get more customers than jh audio, unique melody and noble audio even though they are fairly new? They have a better strategy offering demo units, good support, overall quality in their products, faster turnaround times, and cheaper and better value.
Edit: if you still don't understand, you have to open a new product to share it. Display units are no different. They don't lose profit from display units, or demo units, they gain profit in the long run.

As I said, whether the 20% return fee is justified is one thing as one can argue whether it's harder and more expensive to restock a N6 in comparison to an N3 but you're kinda going the wrong way with your idea of an online retailer without physical stores and with limited staff catering to all the requests for demo units.. Also, I only mentioned the international shipping for the sake of complete fairness. For one, why do you think you would be more entitled to receive a demo unit instead of someone in UK for instance? Are you more special or something?
Aside from that I haven't heard 1964 ears but going at their site they have exactly the same policy for demo units as everybody else. You contact them and they decide whether to send you a demo unit or not but I stand corrected if that's not the case and everyone who wants can get one. 
Anyway, Noble has a strategy involving demo units and that is to send units to experienced reviewers, who are well-known in the audiophile world, people trust them and this way they can reach a big number of potential customers with the least amount of risk and expenses. Aside from that you can also contact them for a demo unit as you can see on their site and if they decide they send you one.

 

[bobby12]

As I said, whether the 20% return fee is justified is one thing as one can argue whether it's harder and more expensive to restock a N6 in comparison to an N3 but you're kinda going the wrong way with your idea of an online retailer without physical stores and with limited staff catering to all the requests for demo units.. Also, I only mentioned the international shipping for the sake of complete fairness. For one, why do you think you would be more entitled to receive a demo unit instead of someone in UK for instance? Are you more special or something?
Aside from that I haven't heard 1964 ears but going at their site they have exactly the same policy for demo units as everybody else. You contact them and they decide whether to send you a demo unit or not but I stand corrected if that's not the case and everyone who wants can get one. 
Anyway, Noble has a strategy involving demo units and that is to send units to experienced reviewers, who are well-known in the audiophile world, people trust them and this way they can reach a big number of potential customers with the least amount of risk and expenses. Aside from that you can also contact them for a demo unit as you can see on their site and if they decide they send you one.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/collateral

Every company loses profit in the short run. A good company profits in the long run. Some companies are better than others. 1964 ears had losses making those demos, but look how popular they are now. Much more customers, much more staff, much more overall customer satisfaction, much more profitable. They had a good plan that caused them to lose a bit of money in the short run, but now they are one of the most known CIEM company. They're also doing giveaways on their facebook/twitter to expand even more! Again, it's about expanding.
And yes, if I'm in the US and a company is located in the US and they are marketing to US customers then I do hold priority in their eyes therefore making me more "special"