[paradoxper]

   
Sorry got confused between O2 and ODAC.

How dare you.

 

[NinjaHamster]

   
Sorry got confused between O2 and ODAC.

Ah, well you know that this ... on this site anyway ... mitigates against anything you have previously said ... 

 

[elwappo99]

   
 
I dunno just felt good.  I always hate people who post +1s with no text after so I figure I'd join in.

 
Well in that respect I did get a chuckle, but I just meant for some people there's no point in discussing. 

 

[sfwalcer]

  Perhaps 50% may have been an exaggeration. Maybe 63%. You guys have to remember that at this point in the hobby, where I've pretty much owned, heard, and measured everything in terms of amps and headphones, I'm much more into DACs now. I've had a chance to own or borrow for extended periods up to two dozen DACs and related gizmos (there's probably a lot more I've forgotten about and or just didn't want to say anything because it sucked so badly) ranging in price from $99 to $10,000.

In actuality, the differences between DACs is small. Extremely small to the uninitiated. But DACs are a make or break thing for me. I'm in-between "uber" amps right now having sold my ECBA and returned the DIY T2 (originally on 99 year lease). While I truly did almost pee in my pants and exclaimed "Holy Schiit, it's better than the Lyr" (referring to the Lyr with boring sounding stock tubes) upon my first listen, I came to appreciate the Vali even more because it was the amp currently in the house which let me discern the individual qualities of the DACs I had on hand including: 2x $2k+ DACs, an DIY NOS DAC, a bluetooth DAC, a cheapy combo DAC, Gungnir, and in their specific configurations: coax, USB, USB/i2s converters, custom power supplies, etc. The fact that the Vali was semi-portable was plus since most of these DACs along with their setups are scattered about the house.
 
Is the Vali the last word and what I would prefer to use for my DAC evaluations (which are always ongoing)? No. But it serves a purpose while I am waiting for my uber amp. And even after the uber amp is delivered, I know I'll have something cheap that kicks well above its weight class as a bedside rig.
 
And by the way, very little gear I've heard "kicks well above its weight class". That term is way overused and should be applied to or only occur no more than once a year on average. I certainly haven't found a DAC which I would give that moniker, although the Bifrost uber may be a candidate (I have not evaluated it enough to feel comfortable saying that.) In terms of headphones, practically everything is a rip-off, although I applaud the efforts of Mr. Speakers and HiFiMan. In terms of other amps, maybe the ECS7 gets the nod for "kicks well above its weight class."

 
+

   
So are you saying the Vali is 99.9% transparent to your ears?

That's what it sounds like. I wanted to be the first but couldn't do it. People already think i'm nutty enough sometimes. I love it when I can connect lots of random junk to my amps and hear all the differences easily. When I had the E9 I couldn't even tell the difference between the HRT MSII and ODAC. Not even kidding! On my other amp it's stupid easy and I don't have golden ears.
 
I think people forgot here that Purrin is using a $12,000 headphone and not a Q701. That's pretty important.
 
On my Q701 and HD-650 the difference between my DACs is so slight. When I tried the T90 it magically became an even bigger difference but still not that large.

^ Says most headphones are a rip off then goes and buy an Abyss.

 

[NinjaHamster]

   
+
^ Says most headphones are a rip off then goes and buy an Abyss.

Which cost $12,000 in Kamaloo ... wait, they ARE stereo ... maybe it's $6,000 per "ear-speaker" ...

 

[JeremyR]

 
You're a very wise man... LOL. It's so true... I sometimes wonder what my life would have been like if I had not demo'ed the SE530's back in 2006. That experience led me to this forum, and then the lurking began as I gathered info and started buying gear...
 
I've tried to quit Head-Fi a few times in the past but can't seem to overcome the addiction.

 
I equate this to video. Remember when DVD's first came out? When you first saw a DVD, you could tell it was better then VHS, but it was not THAT much better. Then after watching DVD's for months, if you looked at a video on VHS, it looked like absolute crap. The difference was huge.
 
Same thing happened when HD Video came out. When you first saw it, it was not a massive advantage over DVD. Once you got used to it, it became worlds better. Same thing is happening right now with 4K TV. Sure it looked a little better, but no big deal. I bet in a few years if you look at a 1080p TV, you're going to think it looks like crap.
 
 
Right now I am in the VHS stage of the audio world. Maybe I should just stop here. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss. I don't find myself enjoying movies any more today, then I did when all I had was a VCR. I might want to preserve that ignorance.

 

[M-13]

Just to be clear guys. Evaluating dacs comes more easily after you get used to a few nice quality dacs. Once you know what to look for and where it really doesn't take that long to hear a difference. Like 10 seconds of a passage of song that is super complex with lots of things happening will literally reveal almost everything about that dac. A lesser dac will smear the details and the attacks will sound blunted and messy at the end or the tonality will be off, bloated or recessed somewhere. There is also resolution, the ability to extract micro-details. etc. I mean seriously once you hear the difference it's startling and hard to go back to $100 dacs. The reason it takes so long to figure out the difference initally is just a lack of experience. Once you have the experience the differences are very in your face hard to miss even after just a few second of listening. It doesn't take weeks or months everytime you get a new dac. I'm just saying your very first one might take that long.
 
And no need to jump into $10k territory. Just try the $600 Concero, or if you can swing a get a X-Sabre, DA8, Anedio D2. Or buy any of these used if you want them cheaper. They're all near $1000 or under. You can probably resell them at the exact price you bought them for. People spend $1000 on headphones all the time, LCD-2/T1/HD800, hell even the HD700 went for a $1000. Try a dac in that range if you already have a phone of this caliber and get ready to smile big and eat crow.

 

[TMRaven]

Man I dunno I tell you what's a drastic difference is going from Composite to S-video or component 480p.  That color bleed and dot crawl is so bad.

 

[NinjaHamster]

Or like those people who thought early 14 bit CD was better than Vinyl as it didn't crack or pop and the specs (channel separation, DR) were great and then ... Oh, wait ...

 

[jbarrentine]

IMO, the nuances, subtle sonic characteristics, and overall performance level of a given piece can be difficult to detect upon first (or second, or third) listen. 

 
If you have to sacrifice a chicken, go into a trance and communicate with the Old Ones to hear a difference, that's the same as there being no difference, because even IF some nuance exists, you won't hear it 99.9% of the time. 
 
People spending that extra thousand dollars or whatever for that .1% really need to step back and take a self inventory imo. 

 

[M-13]

   
I equate this to video. Remember when DVD's first came out? When you first saw a DVD, you could tell it was better then VHS, but it was not THAT much better. Then after watching DVD's for months, if you looked at a video on VHS, it looked like absolute crap. The difference was huge.
 
Same thing happened when HD Video came out. When you first saw it, it was not a massive advantage over DVD. Once you got used to it, it became worlds better. Same thing is happening right now with 4K TV. Sure it looked a little better, but no big deal. I bet in a few years if you look at a 1080p TV, you're going to think it looks like crap.
 
 
Right now I am in the VHS stage of the audio world. Maybe I should just stop here. Sometimes ignorance truly is bliss. I don't find myself enjoying movies any more today, then I did when all I had was a VCR. I might want to preserve that ignorance.

This is a great analogy. I'm waiting for 8K TVs that are 3D without glasses and are curved like a movie theater screen so that the edges are equidistant from the center. Oh, and of course it must be 100 inches +. LOL.

 

[JeremyR]

 
This is a great analogy. I'm waiting for 8K TVs that are 3D without glasses and are curved like a movie theater screen so that the edges are equidistant from the center. Oh, and of course it must be 100 inches +. LOL.

 
version 3 of this should do the trick
 
http://www.oculusvr.com/

 

[paradoxper]

   
If you have to sacrifice a chicken, go into a trance and communicate with the Old Ones to hear a difference, that's the same as there being no difference, because even IF some nuance exists, you won't hear it 99.9% of the time. 
 
People spending that extra thousand dollars or whatever for that .1% really need to step back and take a self inventory imo. 

People should really stop judging other's. Whether or not a $1k+ DAC or uber amp is worth it, is up to the individual.
What matters is what kind of enjoyment you get out of whatever it is you're into.
 
The same should be said for telling people they need x to realize x potential. Ignorance is bliss, so let it be.
Most of us do get curious enough to explore on our own as is. 
 
As has been said before pricing is no indicator of performance, etc. And as long as you're enjoying yourself
that's all that matters, be it with $100 gear, car radio, $1kgear or Beats. 

 

[M-13]

Just an observation from spending some time on Head-Fi...
 
It seems like this "dacs don't make much of a difference" theme always repeats itself in threads that are budget item oriented.
 
For example, this line of argument flies well in the HE-400 thread and is generally well received by many there; but try saying the same thing in the HE-6 or HD800 thread and people will smack you around and call you a fool. I think the difference is that people on these budget threads don't have a lot of money and spend a majority of their money on cans and perhaps even a semi-decent amp like the O2 or Asgard/Magni. This leaves them with just a soundcard or a budget dac and they have to convince themselves expensive dacs don't makea difference. Their ears are open to any and all arguments that dacs are unimportant.
 
I've never seen a post where some guy says, "Hey guys so I've been living with this $1000 dac for a few weeks now and I hear no difference from my ODAC, so I'm gong to send it back. Looks like you guys were wrong so F U."
 
It's always more like: "I tried some $10,000,000 dac briefly at a audio shop or a meet and I heard no difference." or "Science tells me there is no difference humans can hear."
 
This pattern seems to rehash itself on a lot of threads on Head-Fi. LOL.
 
When you guys on college budgets start splashing around with more expensive dacs you will all come to the darkside...

 

[painted klown]

  I agree with you - but I would take out the "usually" in that equation ... There may be differences which are obviously discernible - definitely - but one should base their opinions (where possible) on extended listening - not a quick "back and forth" - often those "easily discernible" differences can dispose you to like something which longer-term listening proves to be a "flash and bang".  You are absolutely right in suggesting that speakers and headphones reveal more differences immediately ... it's just that these impressions may change over time ... actually, now that I look at it, I'm not really disagreeing with you at all ... I'm agreeing with you, and then adding an additional component which is worth considering.  I would not take "usually" out of the equation at all ... I would just add this addendum ...

I agree 100%.
 
I bought my main speakers (Bowers & Wilkins 684) based on inexperience and cost. After living with them for several years now, I lament the fact I made such a hasty decision. Replacing speakers isn't cheap to do (IMO). After owning them for a while, I find the aluminum tweeters to be extremely sibilant and fatiguing at high volumes for long listening sessions. 
 
To the uninitiated/inexperienced listener (me, when I bought them) they sounded good at low  to medium volume levels. They sound "impressive" to the new audiophile (having never really heard hi-fi speakers before) as they sounded "full and engaging" with good bass and decent detail in the top end. I now feel that their "detailed top end" is nothing more than exaggerated highs. I think they are fine for movies, no complaints there. However, for 2 channel critical music listening, I crave something more.
 
If I were to buy new speakers today, I would (most likely) get something that sounds considerably different than what I currently own. Definitely something that leans toward a "darker" sound, and no more metal tweeters (I am thinking ribbon, or silk dome tweeters may fit the bill).
 
 
All of this is IMO, and I mean no offense to owners of B&W speakers (heck, I own them myself). If you love yours, that is great, I just wish I loved mine. Then again, I do have their lowest cost towers. LOL!
 
But I am way off topic now...
 
On Topic: I understand that some tube lovers are generally attracted to tubes because of the color the tubes add to the signal. This is sometimes described as "Tube-iness" (that's the technical term

). Some people like a lot of this "tube sound" while others seem to like just enough for a little smoothing of the highs and a bit of mid-range thickening.
 
For those with tube experience, how would you rate the "Tube-iness" of the Vali? Does it add a lot of that tube sound, or a little bit of "tube flavor" to the signal?