[jexby]

   
 It's more about the amps ability to use power to to tap into the hp and give it what it needs to sound it's best. 
 
There are a couple of good examples here. The lyr is one. It does power with refinement. But it never overpowers on hp's that it is rated for. The hd650 has good scale and the lyr taps into what it takes to sound really really nice. There are dynamics brought out by the lyr that I have not experienced with other amps, but it can also bring out delicate abilities that wow me also. 
 
I have never, I repeat never, heard what the he-4 really sounds like until the day that I plugged it into the Pioneer sx1280. It was shocking. The bass "came alive" with weight and texture and just amazed me. Many of these old receivers use the same output stage for the hp out as they do for speakers...no need for speakers taps to get a sense of what they can do. 

 
First, thanks for your attempt to quantify your findings.
 
 
Second, am still mystified by terms like "tap into" ??
like the headphones mysteryiously asks for nano-seconds of increased voltages?   
the amp somehow knows to deliver "more mW power" despite the volume knob?
 
there must be some other (electrical?) element I am missing here....

 

[purrin]

   
So, in your estimation, what's the go to dac $350 and under to couple with the Vali? Many of us just don't have 4 or 5 grand or whatever to put into a dac. If the non-crap is above that level, I'm washed out.

 
Can you swing $419? Beef-roast with the Uber Analog upgrade (which is huge).

 

[MattTCG]

please explain why anyone would choose USB over the optical connection. It's more expensive and schiit has always recommended Optical over usb for best sound quality. also much less expensive. A

 

[M-13]

please explain why anyone would choose USB over the optical connection. It's more expensive and schiit has always recommended Optical over usb for best sound quality. also much less expensive. A

Aren't the new gen 2 usb boards better now?

 

[TMRaven]

If you have an imac the usb is less of a hassle to switch via sound options than having to reach behind your computer every time you want to change to computer speakers and back.
 
I've A/B'd the optical and usb of the bifrost (very very little) but I couldn't find a difference in sq.

 

[NinjaHamster]

Go to dac around $400 ... probably the Rega P1 ... sorry, couldn't resist ... 

 

[paradoxper]

 
I've A/B'd the optical and usb of the bifrost (very very little) but I couldn't find a difference in sq.

Yup. Bifrost/Gungnir. Though USB will always help with resale value.

 

[M-13]

Well for me I'm skeptical because I listened to a $13,000 DAC in a store (through more expensive speakers) and just wasn't very impressed. Also skeptical because DACs in the $100 range already have specs beyond human hearing (like the actual DAC chip being used). So I think it's things going on in the electronics besides just the digital to analog conversion. I've owned and heard the difference between a Xonar DGX and a Xonar DX and it was significant. But I've never had a Bifrost to A/B with. I'd like to try it someday.

Honestly? I'm right there with you man. When I was fairly new to this whole dac thing. I was loudly telling people on this forum that my Fiio E17 dac section sounds exactly the same as a DACport LX after A/B'ing them back and forth a few times on various songs. I did my evaluation over 2 evenings and sent the DacPort LX back to Mike at Centrance. Happy and smug about my scientific/rational understanding of dac design princples.
 
Now, I consider what I was doing and saying at the time total nonsense foolishness. I didn't have the experience to evaluate dacs. I didn't know what I was looking for. Once I started living with the Bifrost for a few weeks I was able to finally hear what a dac was supposed to do. Then I was hooked, I could hear a huge difference between Fiio products and the Bifrost on every song. Once I got the Concero it was another leap over the Bifrost and I haven't looked back. Once you have the experience to evaluate after living with some good dacs it gets easier and more readily apparent. I know it sounds strange but there it is.
 
My suggestion would be for you to live with a nice dac for a few weeks (from a place with a no hassle return policy). If after 2 or 3 weeks you think it makes no difference send it back and consider yourself very lucky becasue you will not have to spend money. But I'm willing to bet you do hear something and then you'll have a realization moment, like a light bulb turning on in your head. LOL.

 

[ethan7000]

Honestly? I'm right there with you man. When I was fairly new to this whole dac thing. I was loudly telling people on this forum that my Fiio E17 dac section sounds exactly the same as a DACport LX after A/B'ing them back and forth a few times on various songs. I did my evaluation over 2 evenings and sent the DacPort LX back to Mike at Centrance. Happy and smug about my scientific/rational understanding of dac design princples.

Now, I consider what I was doing and saying at the time total nonsense foolishness. I didn't have the experience to evaluate dacs. I didn't know what I was looking for. Once I started living with the Bifrost for a few weeks I was able to finally hear what a dac was supposed to do. Then I was hooked, I could hear a huge difference between Fiio products and the Bifrost on every song. Once I got the Concero it was another leap over the Bifrost and I haven't looked back. Once you have the experience to evaluate after living with some good dacs it gets easier and more readily apparent. I know it sounds strange but there it is.

My suggestion would be for you to live with a nice dac for a few weeks (from a place with a no hassle return policy). If after 2 or 3 weeks you think it makes no difference send it back and consider yourself very lucky becasue you will not have to spend money. But I'm willing to bet you do hear something and then you'll have a realization moment, like a light bulb turning on in your head. LOL.

Very well could be. I think I partially don't even want to try it for fear of then needing another piece of equipment :/

 

[NinjaHamster]

I do agree with this, but you have raised a pertinent point ... the differences between GOOD DACS (of any price) are often not huge ... you won't generally find them in a 30 minute audition.  Which does beg a further question ... is it worth it ?  I think the differences between lower-priced amps are more pertinent and obvious.  Personally, I'd be going for an Amp change or a headphone change at most levels ... once you have them sorted (and have a fair bit more money) the DAC'S start to make a huge influence.  But for me, and I suspect most people, despite agreeing largely with the logic of the Linn (source first) philosophy, in the real world, and at most people's budget, I'd still be saying spend 50% on the transducer, and divide the rest between the amp and the DAC ... even then, there can be no "set" prescription ... for instance, the $1000 Audeze LCD-2's with a Lyr (with $80 worth of tube upgrades) is a great "back-end", or you could get the Mjolnir ... I'd do that and get a good budget DAC whilst saving up, rather than the other way around ... then again, I wouldn't laugh at someone driving LCD-3's with a Vali.  Such a complex subject and so many roads to great sound !

 

[M-13]

Very well could be. I think I partially don't even want to try it for fear of then needing another piece of equipment :/

You're a very wise man... LOL. It's so true... I sometimes wonder what my life would have been like if I had not demo'ed the SE530's back in 2006. That experience led me to this forum, and then the lurking began as I gathered info and started buying gear...
 
I've tried to quit Head-Fi a few times in the past but can't seem to overcome the addiction.

 

[cggkevin1976]

USB has several advantages. For PC's USB is always possible. Optical is not. On Mac's I believe the optical out is limited to 96/24. I went with Schiits recommendation and
got my Bifrost without USB and got an M2 USB/spdif but now I'm thinking if getting the gen2 USB upgrade.

 

[JeremyR]

   
I do in fact find it suspect that this amp can compete and quality tried and true amps costing 4-10x times as much. 

 
If a consumer who knows exactly what those higher end amps sound like prefers this one, then by definition it competes. The only other option is he is just lying, and unless he is being paid to do so, I have no idea why anyone would suggest he is.

 

[painted klown]

 
Honestly? I'm right there with you man. When I was fairly new to this whole dac thing. I was loudly telling people on this forum that my Fiio E17 dac section sounds exactly the same as a DACport LX after A/B'ing them back and forth a few times on various songs. I did my evaluation over 2 evenings and sent the DacPort LX back to Mike at Centrance. Happy and smug about my scientific/rational understanding of dac design princples.
 
Now, I consider what I was doing and saying at the time total nonsense foolishness. I didn't have the experience to evaluate dacs. I didn't know what I was looking for. Once I started living with the Bifrost for a few weeks I was able to finally hear what a dac was supposed to do. Then I was hooked, I could hear a huge difference between Fiio products and the Bifrost on every song. Once I got the Concero it was another leap over the Bifrost and I haven't looked back. Once you have the experience to evaluate after living with some good dacs it gets easier and more readily apparent. I know it sounds strange but there it is.
 
My suggestion would be for you to live with a nice dac for a few weeks (from a place with a no hassle return policy). If after 2 or 3 weeks you think it makes no difference send it back and consider yourself very lucky becasue you will not have to spend money. But I'm willing to bet you do hear something and then you'll have a realization moment, like a light bulb turning on in your head. LOL.

I agree with the fact that it can sometimes take extended listening to fully flesh out the differences in equipment that (theoretically) should sound the same (any measurable differences between the two should not be audible).
 
IMO, the nuances, subtle sonic characteristics, and overall performance level of a given piece can be difficult to detect upon first (or second, or third) listen. I have found that continued listening with a wide variety of music (both reference quality recordings and terribly mastered modern discs) works best for me when evaluating new gear.
 
I am speaking strictly about well designed electronic components, and not necessarily about speakers or headphones. Usually, they are sonically far enough apart that the differences are easily discernible.
 
All of this is IMO and YMMV.

 

[NinjaHamster]

 
I am speaking strictly about well designed electronic components, and not necessarily about speakers or headphones. Usually, they are sonically far enough apart that the differences are easily discernible.
 

I agree with you - but I would take out the "usually" in that equation ... There may be differences which are obviously discernible - definitely - but one should base their opinions (where possible) on extended listening - not a quick "back and forth" - often those "easily discernible" differences can dispose you to like something which longer-term listening proves to be a "flash and bang".  You are absolutely right in suggesting that speakers and headphones reveal more differences immediately ... it's just that these impressions may change over time ... actually, now that I look at it, I'm not really disagreeing with you at all ... I'm agreeing with you, and then adding an additional component which is worth considering.  I would not take "usually" out of the equation at all ... I would just add this addendum ...