New Beyer DT1350
Sep 2, 2011 at 11:15 PM Post #961 of 4,010
regarding the "fit" issue, Ive found that after wearing them for like 10 minutes the pads gets the shape of the ear and they seal better (I fell kind of stupid talking about seal issues with a non-IEM btw), in other words the memory foam in the pads addopt the shape of my ears and that's it, it might be the same with my other headphones, but granted they dont require a good fit to shine, at least not as drastic as the little beyer.
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 12:06 AM Post #962 of 4,010


Quote:
It is all about getting a seal. It's getting better clamping, changing the angle of the cups and pads to get the seal right. I don't think I implied, and didn't mean to if I did, that I was trying to change the location or angle of the drivers to change the sound.


Agreed...this is what I meant by "sweet" spot.  Without this seal, there is no bass whatsoever.
With the seal, while they are certainly not bassy, the bass does show up.  Not a lot of quantity, as you mentioned, but nice deep extension.
 
 
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 2:43 AM Post #963 of 4,010


Quote:
 
You've made a few references to the 1350s being "bass light" and "lacking low end".  No disrespect...but that has not been my experience at all.  Are you sure you are getting a truly good fit on these?  You seem to be describing the way they sound before I have them in my "sweet" spot (which took a little time to find).
 
My experience has been very similar to something that Beagle mentioned a little while back....the bass is highly dependent on the recording. Sometimes, it is a little light.  But when it is there in the recording...it is THERE.  Are you hearing something similar?
 
Quote:
Sometimes you think there's not much bass, then you try another recording and it's all there. In fact, on the same recording (The Police "Synchronicity") one track had rather lightweight bass and another was absolutely thunderous in it's depth and power. Same thing on the top end, some recordings sound a bit lifeless in the treble, others sparkle. We must be getting close to "accurate" here.


The DT1350s are definitely bass light. I've been using these for more than a month now and I've found the different ways to wear them to get that "seal" or "sweet spot". They are most definitely bass-light. The bass is there, but it's at best neutral bass, but to my ears clearly moving more towards the lighter side of neutral.
 
I'm a basshead by nature and a lot of my gear is very warm or dark-sounding. I live in bass. So I am very sensitive to changes in bass. That said I keep stuff like the K701 because I like to have variety and different points of reference.
 
To put things in perspective, the K701, which many people say has no bass, clearly has more bass than the DT1350.  I've made this comparison over and over. It is 100% sure. The K701 has more bass than the Dt1350.  Also, the DT1350 is clearly brighter than the K701. Treble and upper mids are definitely more accentuated than that of the K701's. I do not know what the FR graph looks like but this is how it sounds. 
 
I also need to run the DT1350 out of a bassy amp like the E7 or the X02 in order to really enjoy it; there is a lack of warmth and bass otherwise and it doesn't sound that engaging.
 
 
As always, things are still very subjective and how people here things can always different. But from my listening sessions this are my experience with this headphone compared to the K701.
 
 
 
I have swbf's back on this one, the Beyers in general are not a warm set of headphones, especially the DT770, DT880, DT990 and DT1350 (all versions of the aforementioned -- except maybe the DT770 pro).  The only Beyer I have heard that I would actually consider to be on the warm side of things is the DT150.
 
I also think the "sweet spot" thing is a bit overblown. Fiddling around with headphone placement for the DT1350 isn't as game-changing as on a few other on-ears I've had, like the Bose Triport OE where just shifting the headband a bit causes a huge difference in the sound.  I guess it's because of the aforementioned memory pads that seem to cling to my ear properly, but unless I forcibly put the cups off my ears in a way to create a gap, I can't get a bad seal with these. It's pretty easy for me to wear.
 
The only way to really get more bass out of them for me is to hold the cups with my hands and forcibly press them towards my ears. This really heightens the bass response, but you cannot wear them this way without continuous pressure being exerted by something other than the headband.
 
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 3:50 AM Post #964 of 4,010


 
Quote:
The only way to really get more bass out of them for me is to hold the cups with my hands and forcibly press them towards my ears. This really heightens the bass response, but you cannot wear them this way without continuous pressure being exerted by something other than the headband.
 
 


But that is exactly the point, as long as you can get more bass by pressing the cups, you have not achieved the proper seal. Take one cup in each hand and bend the unspread headbands so that the cups pass each other.That way you increase the unspread clamping force. The headband is stainless steel, it will not break. Then adjust the cups and spread the headband . Now you should be able to get the seal that needs no further pressing of the cups. 
 
 
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 4:25 AM Post #965 of 4,010


Quote:
Let me clarify, the positions that I am using are not being driven by trying to change the position of the drivers. It is all about getting a seal. It's getting better clamping, changing the angle of the cups and pads to get the seal right. I don't think I implied, and didn't mean to if I did, that I was trying to change the location or angle of the drivers to change the sound. Sorry if I gave that impression. But I do think a seal of some kind, is required for even open headphones, and I agree that should be part of the design, not something you have to work at.

As my experience with the 1350 indicates that I am finding the seal with greater ease now, this might be due to a learning curve, but it might also be that the pads are getting softer or worn in making it easier... Just a thought.

 
Ah, no prob.  I shouldn't have assumed you meant anything else :wink:
 
But ya, in that regard yes you would be right.  The angle of the cups makes a difference, I shift it often to get it back into the right place as it seems to shift out of place over a short time.  I have not experienced it shifting into the correct place yet, maybe my set is too new?  But after i get it right, it always goes back to something i need to fix back into the correct place.  I think if someone found out how to tailor the back side of the Sennheiser HD 25-i-ii velours for use with the DT 1350, something really magical would happen.  I am going to look into it, maybe I can trim the back of the velours and apply some type of felt to it so it can stick just like the stock DT 1350 pads do! O.o 
 
@mochan, zomg a head fi legend has my back! I'm tellin everyone I know :3
 
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 5:19 AM Post #966 of 4,010


Quote:
The DT1350s are definitely bass light. I've been using these for more than a month now and I've found the different ways to wear them to get that "seal" or "sweet spot". They are most definitely bass-light. The bass is there, but it's at best neutral bass, but to my ears clearly moving more towards the lighter side of neutral.
 
I'm a basshead by nature and a lot of my gear is very warm or dark-sounding. I live in bass. So I am very sensitive to changes in bass. That said I keep stuff like the K701 because I like to have variety and different points of reference.
 
To put things in perspective, the K701, which many people say has no bass, clearly has more bass than the DT1350.  I've made this comparison over and over. It is 100% sure. The K701 has more bass than the Dt1350.  Also, the DT1350 is clearly brighter than the K701. Treble and upper mids are definitely more accentuated than that of the K701's. I do not know what the FR graph looks like but this is how it sounds. 
 
I also need to run the DT1350 out of a bassy amp like the E7 or the X02 in order to really enjoy it; there is a lack of warmth and bass otherwise and it doesn't sound that engaging.
 
 
As always, things are still very subjective and how people here things can always different. But from my listening sessions this are my experience with this headphone compared to the K701.
 
 
 
I have swbf's back on this one, the Beyers in general are not a warm set of headphones, especially the DT770, DT880, DT990 and DT1350 (all versions of the aforementioned -- except maybe the DT770 pro).  The only Beyer I have heard that I would actually consider to be on the warm side of things is the DT150.
 
I also think the "sweet spot" thing is a bit overblown. Fiddling around with headphone placement for the DT1350 isn't as game-changing as on a few other on-ears I've had, like the Bose Triport OE where just shifting the headband a bit causes a huge difference in the sound.  I guess it's because of the aforementioned memory pads that seem to cling to my ear properly, but unless I forcibly put the cups off my ears in a way to create a gap, I can't get a bad seal with these. It's pretty easy for me to wear.
 
The only way to really get more bass out of them for me is to hold the cups with my hands and forcibly press them towards my ears. This really heightens the bass response, but you cannot wear them this way without continuous pressure being exerted by something other than the headband.
 


Going by their FR graphs, all the Beyers you mentionned are at least as warm as the K701 if not a bit warmer. The DT 1350 on the other hand is much warmer, and it actually is warmer than most portable headphones out there, including ES10, ESW10, ESW9, P5, HD-25, etc, and it has one of the strongest bass in terms of quantity, and has one of the best measured 30 hz square wave of all headphones measured by Tyll.
 
But remember that FR does not always correlate to subjective experience. Let me give you an example : the sound coming out of bookshelf speakers measures (most of the time) as flat (at least through the midrange, and not taking into account bass extension beyond 80hz) as the one coming out of floorstanders. Yet, floorstanders seem most of the time to be more full-bodied than bookshelves. In the exact same way, despite the fact that my Z1000 measures brighter than the DT 1350, it may appear at first listen to sound warmer.
 
What is the cause of this ? I don't know for sure, I'm no engineer. But I'd bet that things such as driver size, driver mass, driver displacement, all play a role in making the sound more "substantial", something that shouldn't be mistaken for being "warmer".
 
Another example : the Omega II and the LCD-2 have an extremely close FR response according to some posters here. Tyll still hasn't measured the OII but I believe will do so in the upcoming future. Yet thay sound totally different : the LCD-2 is reportedly full bodied, while the OII has a lighter, airier sound signature. Not surpising given the differences between electrostatic and orthomagnetic headphones.
 
To sum it up : the DT 1350 is warm, and that's a measured fact. But I think that it sounds quite airy, light-footed and unsubstantial (which could be a product of its small driver, or housing design, or diaphragm mass, or something else), which is often mistaken for being bright.
 
Also, there is no "bass light" or "bass heavy" amp, unless it's poorly designed. My iPhone outputs a FR response that's dead on flat and I suppose my TTVJ does the same, yet, the TTVJ sounds much more substantial than the iPhone - something that could, again, be mistaken for being warmer. Unless the amp is badly designed, or designed with some intentional compromise in mind, or has some poorly chosen capacitors in the signal path, it should give you a flat FR response. There are other aspect of sound that can influence or bias our hearing so as to hear an amp as being more bassy than another, but they should still have the same FR.
 
This unsubstantial sound is personally my main criticism of the DT 1350, as it make it quite unexciting with poorly recorded material IMHO. 
 
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 6:21 AM Post #967 of 4,010
Gentlemen hopefully no one minds me piping in my two cents. I haven't been on this thread for the last few days and tonight I finally had some spare time to catch up on the DT1350 discussion. First I'm rather confused by some statements made concerning the DT 1350 vs the B&W P5. I owned the P5 for nearly a year and to my ears the 1350 is nowhere near as warm as the P5. If anything the P5 was quite warm and the sound was rather colored. I also found the bass on the P5 rather uncontrolled and to my ears lacked the bass extension the 1350's possess. I'm rather surprised anyone would try to compare the P5 to the 1350 because to me comparing these two cans is like comparing apples to oranges. My opinion is the 1350's is Beyer's mobile answer towards a hi fi oriented crowd while the P5 is B&W's mobile answer towards a more mainstream crowd. Let's be completely honest the P5 is a wonderfully comfortable mobile can but it isn't known for being the greatest sounding for the money spent or at least not in my book.
 
A few pages back someone asked about the 1350 and how it ranked in lushness. Alongside my 1350 I also own the Sennheiser Hd 25-I-II Adidas which is known for being a very lush sounding can. I would never class the 1350 lush if anything the sound is far more lean compared to my HD25. I find it rather interesting to compare these two headphones. The HD25 I wouldn't say has more bass compared to the 1350 but it does have by far more impact. You see the HD25 has a mid bass hump which gives it by far more authority compared to the 1350. The 1350 in my opinion has more bass or rather it approaches bass in a completely different manner. The 1350 bass is lean that I agree but as some have stated earlier the 1350's bass is far more detailed and by far lower reaching then the HD25. It's not to say it isn't punchy the bass impact is quite punchy but it's punchy in all the right places while the HD25 has a more boomy in your face sort of punch behind it.
 
As for genre's and timbre, my experience is as follows. The 1350's are my go to cans when it comes to acoustic and Jazz hands down. For straight up hard rock I would say they do an excellent job for about 80% of my music and for metal music its more along the lines of 50%. As far as metal is concerned my Grado's SR60's edge them out in certain songs as well as my HD 25's. It's not so much the 1350 doesn't work with the genre as well as my HD 25's or Grado's it's just with it's lusher sound the HD 25 is far more forgiving with bad recordings compared to the 1350's. Overall if I had to pick a winner for extremely aggressive music such as Metal and it's various sub genres I find my Grado's with it's forward mids which pulls the guitars and drums forward to the point of being in your face coupled with it's smaller sound stage which gives the sound a even more agressive edge works far better with most metal. To further elaborate maybe it's just me being used to the Grado sound but I find the guitars to sound slightly off on some metal songs on the 1350's and extremely aggressive music will couple better with my Grado's. It's not to say the 1350's are a complete fail my opinion is (and I stress this is just my opinion) the 1350's as stated earlier generally work well with about half of my metal music depending on the metal sub genre. For example I find that well recorded progressive metal and especially symphonic metal generally sounds quite good on the Beyer's to the point that they edge out my HD 25's an Grado's
 
So to recap these are my findings. The Sennheiser HD25 I-II is a by far lusher can with more authority behind it's bass but not necessarily more bass. The bass is only more impactful sounding due to it's mid bass hump. It's also a more forgiving can therefore not as revealing on audio source material. Overall I find the HD 25's to be an excellent all arounder.
 
The 1350 is a leaner sounding can which is also very nimble. The bass may not be as impactful as the HD25 but it's by far more lower reaching with better bass detail and better detail across the whole sound spectrum. Although it may not have the full big can sound it still gives you an excellent overall sound for being such a small portable. They sound incredible with jazz acoustic soul symphonic metal and progressive rock/metal. As others have stated before me vocals sound quite spectacular. They are also very audio source dependent meaning if you have a badly recorded song that song will be exposed as a badly recorded song and will sound like trash on the DT 1350.
 
Hope i didn't stick my foot in my mouth with this post. I'm rather new to the world of head fi and there are by far more knowledgeable people on this thread then me.
 
P.S.
I also listen to electronica or more specifically trance music. I didn't bother mentioning my findings on the 1350's for electronica because I'm openly bias. Trance is a bass heavy genre and my opinion is if I want to mellow out to trance I'm going to do it with the biggest baddest bass heavy fart cannons I have in my arsenal which is my Sony XB 500 and 700's. I know these cans are as far as you get from hi fi but they're a guilty pleasure of mine and I enjoy them immensely.
 
Bless
Arly
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 7:27 AM Post #968 of 4,010
Let's put the graphs on this page :
 
DT 1350 :
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT1350.pdf
 
P5 :
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BowersandWilkinsP5Test2.pdf
 
HD 25-1 II :
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD251II.pdf
 
ESW9 :
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudioTechnicaATHESW9.pdf
 
As you can see the DT 1350 is in general warmer than all of them in regards to its measured FR. You said that the HD 25-1 II has more midbass - this isn't the case as far as measurement goes (relative to the mids). Also, you can see that the P5 extends lower than the HD 25-1 II and ESW9 and has a better square wave down there.
 
BUT I agree that subjective impressions can be different. As an example, I indeed find the P5 to be subjectively warmer than the DT 1350 in the mids. What could explain this ? I don't know, but I'd bet on the following : diaphragm material, driver size, and the overall slowness of the p5 which tends to turn their sound on the muddier side. I also agree that subjectively their bass isn't very well controlled and extended.
 
The same reasons (diaphragm material, driver displacement, housing design, etc.) might also explain why the HD 25-1 II is more impactful than the DT 1350 despite having less midbass and bass quantity overall than the DT 1350.
 
So I agree to say that the DT 1350 may appear brighter than the others, but that isn't the case. Now, DigitalFreak said that they sound "leaner" : I think the use of this term is more correct than "brighter" in that case, as "brighter" would indicate a FR slanted towards increased quantity of trebles, which isn't the case, while "leaner" just says that they sound quite thin, or tiny, or unsubstantial, which IMHO is closer to the truth.
 
This unsubstantial sound is probably the reason why I dislike the DT 1350 with poorly recorded rock - in the same way that I found some Stax setups to be quite awful in that case.
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 7:36 AM Post #969 of 4,010
Not saying FR response graphs are the be all end all, but thought I'd supply some links to add some context to everyone's arguments.
 
Again, they won't tell how you exactly how a headphone will sound to you, but I think it does give you an idea.
 
If I do not have permission to copy these links, please feel free to (request a) delete/edit (of) this post.
 
All measurements and credit go to innerfidelity.com
 
An interesting picture of the 1350 being placed improperly vs. sealed on the test rig's head.
 

 
The bass response increases exponentially compared to the mids and highs when sealed properly.
 
And the other test measurements done:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT1350.pdf - 1350s show strong, sustained bass extension, harsh peaks at 10khz
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD251II.pdf - HD 25-1 IIs show weaker sub-bass, stronger extension into the lower mids, same peak at 10khz
 
another headphone mentioned earlier, the K701
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK701.pdf - shows a much more neutral response curve and bass more on par with the mids and highs
 
and finally, the MS 400s were mentioned, but I don't think comparing a full size circumaural closed-back phone to a small housing portable is fair.  The MS 300s are more similar in size:
 
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/PhiatonMS300.pdf - which show a severely recessed high end, which is probably why they were mentioned to be much more bass heavy.  Again, the extension found in the 1350s is missing, though.
 
Another note, of the 4 phones mentioned above, I have only heard the Beyers and the Senns.
 
 
Finally, I'm not going to state any conclusions, I just wanted to give some context to everyone's argument in this (what I think is a) constructive discussion.
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 7:38 AM Post #970 of 4,010
MayaTlab - are you kidding me?  Did we actually post the exact same thing at nearly the same time?
 
 
 
What are the odds haha..... 
beerchug.gif

 
Sep 3, 2011 at 9:56 AM Post #972 of 4,010


Quote:
This unsubstantial sound is probably the reason why I dislike the DT 1350 with poorly recorded rock - in the same way that I found some Stax setups to be quite awful in that case.


*swoops out of the sky in super hero costume
 
I shall defend you from the ravenous wolves, sir! No need to worry, never fear, Swbf2cheater is....ohh pankcakes!  *runs over to random breakfast plate oddly placed here and eats 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 10:09 AM Post #973 of 4,010


Quote:
*swoops out of the sky in super hero costume
 
I shall defend you from the ravenous wolves, sir! No need to worry, never fear, Swbf2cheater is....ohh pankcakes!  *runs over to random breakfast plate oddly placed here and eats 
 
 
 
 
 


Don't worry, I've already voiced my love of Stax headphones for everything else (but poorly recorded rock) :D.
 
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 5:04 PM Post #974 of 4,010
 
Maya Tlab,
 
I think the graphs match the sound that I have heard on the p5 and the dt1350 quite well, as well as showing the midbass bump witht he lack of extension that some have reported on the hd25's.
 
If you look at the posted graphs there is a slight midbass hump in the graph of the hd25's right at 140hz that is higher than the rest of the graph.
 
If you look at the graph of the p5 the bass and mid bass are higher than the midrange and trebe.
 
just an estimate: bass 20-140hz, midbass 140hz to 400hz, midrange 400hz to 5000hz, treble 5000 to 20,000hz
 
Sep 3, 2011 at 6:09 PM Post #975 of 4,010


Quote:
 
Maya Tlab,
 
I think the graphs match the sound that I have heard on the p5 and the dt1350 quite well, as well as showing the midbass bump witht he lack of extension that some have reported on the hd25's.
 
If you look at the posted graphs there is a slight midbass hump in the graph of the hd25's right at 140hz that is higher than the rest of the graph.
 
If you look at the graph of the p5 the bass and mid bass are higher than the midrange and trebe.
 
just an estimate: bass 20-140hz, midbass 140hz to 400hz, midrange 400hz to 5000hz, treble 5000 to 20,000hz


Indeed there is a small (2 dB ?) midbass hump on the HD 25-1 II. But your impressions led you to believe that this hump was stronger on the HD 25 than on the DT 1350 - which isn't the case : relative to the upper mids (3000 or so - 5000, going by your standard), the DT 1350 has substantially more low midrange and midbass.
 
Also, the P5 has the strongest upper midrange of the three (it has the smallest dip around 4000), but indeed the weakest trebles - that's why I said they should have sounded quite bright through the midrange, something I did not particularly notice (like you).
 
My whole point was to say that subjective impressions cannot tell what the actual FR is, and that there has been IMHO an overuse of the terms "bright" or "warm" in this thread, while I think the DT 1350 is best described as "warm" (objective FR response), but lean / thin / unsubstantial / airy / light footed (pick your poison), two things that aren't incompatible at all (listen to some Stax headphones to see another example of "warm" but "light-footed" sound). 
 
 

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