[estreeter]

I guess it all comes down to the length of time it takes for the factory to start manufacturing the PCB - the rest is just assembly and quality control. My estimate is November 1.

 

[treal512]

Well said, i2ehan.

 

[ANDEROAN]

eastern western subjective objective you say tomatoe I say Tomotoe? don't forget its about what floats the boat, if its all about the tech speak and what is perfect nad whats not so perfect about ? but whatever, I have not a clue as to what the heck you speak about, I knows whats I likes and whats I don'ts, and ketchup on icecream is GREAT!! and garlic icecream is even better! by the way, some people are comfortable eating in a fine dining establishment, I'd prefer fish n chips out of a bag off of a street corner, along with alot of ketchup, mmmmm, no, no napkin thats what a sleave is for spank you very much, lol
 
oh and comparing tasting to auditory percptions really aren't good comparators, we're impacted on diferent levels and in diferent ways, when eating, as to listening, ones viscerile, and the other is well emotional and spiritual, but I can dig where your trying to come from, but technically you miss the mark?
 
its all arbitrary, and were all just cosmic dust in the end, people come with too much self importance nowadays, so kick back take your shoes off and stay awhile, and don't miss the point of what listening to Bob Marley is all about, even if its off an old am radio for gosh sakes, if your not enjoying yourself, you've missed the mark, then thats where the problem is at and has NOTHING to do with anything else.......
 
I don't want to be educated, of the proper way to hear what I enjoy, duh, takes all the fun out of it, just like knowing the future BORING, ugh!! never work at a place that you enjoy going to, you will never enjoy it the same again! leave the man behind the curtain, if he's doing a GREAT job let him keep doing so?
 
and as me grandma always said, KISS rocks!! so Keep It Simple Stupid, and for as long as possible, its the devil that we'll find if were always looking into the details of the B.S. in life, we live on a planet where it's all a Racket, players playing players to outplay everyboody else, ugh!!! but hey keep it going I'll ketchup after a fashion, lol, ignorance is bliss and I want to be the happiest fother mucker around, with a ZO stapped to my chest, main lining is the only way to go!! and not screaming and yelling the the other people in the car, lol,
 
and so this is a DigiZoid thread, and lovers only!!! either yous likes it ors yous dont's, aint no rocket science about it whatsoever, that belongs somewhere else, no, oh well if not my bad, and don't forget to always have a great, ZOentropic DAY!! this man and his ZOtastic hyperbole most certainly will

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

 but whatever, I have not a clue as to what the heck you speak about
 
 
Right back at ya, big guy ......

 

[ANDEROAN]

oh well I tried,
 
next,
 
maybe I should've tried dancing sheep?

  at least that pays better, lol

 

[treal512]

It's nice that you like to surgically EQ your headphones, Lunatique, it is. But your ketchup on ice cream debacle is a little off, in my humble opinion. As you said, it only boosts what is there, so I think a lighter comparison is needed. Say Vehicle 1 drives the best with Tire A. Vehicle 1 might not drive as well with Tire B, but it's still fun, responds well and is worth every cent. You might personally object and say that the Tire is not in fact a B, but a D instead, but I think what Vehicle 1 can do with the ZO is just fine as long as we are not on a professional race track. It still handles the country back roads like a champ and never leaves the owner with any hesitation. I think that is a closer example of what is good enough. No malevolence intended.
 
Enjoy the music, folks!
 

 

[Lunatique]

Like I said, my opinion is not popular here. I come from the professional audio side and I'm far more picky about accuracy/neutrality/quality than the average consumer who is the target audience of the digiZoid. I shouldn't even be in this thread , just like how no one in a professional audio forum would be discussing about Zo--totally different segments of the market and value systems. 
 
Party on you guys. I'll go back to my recording studio and make more of that stuff you guys listen to on your Zo devices.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

I'm sorry to have come off as offensive with any personal remarks, but I honestly felt the very same, as though we, the consumers, were being belittled simply because we don't strive to achieve perfect neutrality/balance. I don't wish for this to go beyond the point it's already come to, so I'll simply agree to disagree my friend. Again, if you can find it in your heart to forgive me, then I ask nothing more of you. And yes, I have read over your thread and find it very insightful. 

Apology accepted. 
 
I'm sorry if I unintentionally made people in this thread feel like I'm being disrespectful and condescending. It was never my intention. I only wanted to bring to attention possible alternatives for those who do seek accuracy/neutrality. 
 
Again, I want to make it clear that there's no good and bad--only different priorities and market segments. (But personally, I do believe that once you achieve accuracy/neutrality, audio nirvana will automatically come--this is explained clearly in the threads I linked). If I seem like I'm trying to preach this to anyone who would listen, it's only because I want others to be able to feel the same joy I felt once I discovered how incredibly beautiful accuracy/neutrality really is. My intentions come from a place of good will, and I hope people will see my posts as such. 
 

 

[shotgunshane]

Ok, enough derailing with this circle jerk conversation to nowhere. Start a new thread if you all want to argue ketchup, directors and paid professionals. They vast majority of mainstream music is produced anyway but neutral and dynamic. (note I said mainstream.) Voltage, impedences, dacs, amps, headphones and eartips composition and sound bore are all factors as well and every single one of the previously mentioned analogies is flawed. A single surgical eq nor the zo can compensate for all these factors with one setting but then, that's why the zo is variable and I have different custom eq's saved for the same headphone. Just because someone is paid as a professional to produce and engineer a recording doesn't mean I want to hear it in their 'vision'. There are great producers, terrible producers and even more mediocre ones that saturate the market. To continue to discuss in simplified generalities and anecdotal evidence is accomplishing nothing. Let's please move on.

 

[i2ehan]

Agreed. Question to those with custom monitors. As colored as they may become, has anyone here paired their custom(s) with the Zo? If so, which one(s) and how well is the synergy between them?

 

[stozzer123]

thank you shane, was getting sick of that drivel.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Sorry but I couldn't resist...
 
Why do all audio professionals assume neutrality is the way to go? Also what's neutrality? A perfectly linear FR response around 0-level on a curve or a live performance? What about the impacts of our shape of the ear? I would personally on a theoretical level define neutrality as when all frequencies in the whole range doesn't stand out from the rest. That's probably a wise thing to have if you're a producer and want to make sure your recordings sound as good as possible for a broad range of audience (you will have to go the golden middlepath and then neutality does makes sense so that while it might not sound perfect on every1's gear, at least there's not too big derivation from what would be concidered "listenable" (not too bright, not too bassy etc).
 
BUT then comes one very relevant thing you can't forget about. When listening to music and listening for personal enjoyment, neutrality is hardly any important thing to strive for. OK maybe if you're a strict audiophile, then satisfaction comes usually from "knowing" you got it theoretically setup correctly (the way the producers wanted you to listen to their work and all that yadda yadda), what you actually hear and feel about it is less important, knowing you got it "right" is what brings the satisfaction.
 
Then there's those people who completely disregard the theories and let their ears decide what sounds best to them. I think a lot of audiophiles would be suprised of how seldom perfect "neutrality" is strived for/wanted even after it has been heard/made comparisions with different gears even for extended amount of time. It doesn't necessarily have to be a huge derivation from the perfect neutral sound, not at all, for some it may be a +1dB boost in the mids for example, others might want 2dB boost in the bass. I mean isn't it obvious when you look at human taste, we all have our own prefers in nearly all subjects. Think about it. Wouldn't it be only absurd to think perfect neutrality is the way to listen for every1? Actually audiophile thinking is a bit like religion, you believe it's the truth, it isn't based on facts, it's based on strong influences, people etc that believes it's the way to go and people will follow the stream without questioning and will be offensive if people start questioning.
 
Well I belong to those people who completely disregard the theories and judge the gear by what I hear/percieve because for me that's the way that leads to optimal satisfaction in this hobby based on experience, I go with what my ears want to hear, not what I think they would like to hear. Should be noted a headphone is far more than just about the frequency response balance but it's an important factor no doubt. If I had to make a sketch roughly how I'd say my personal optimal FR curve would look like based on lots of EQing and testing different headphones I'd say it would look roughly like this (I believe the bass could probably be maybe 2 ~ 3dB louder though still)
 

 
Now I'm not trying to say you all should just disregard the theories and go with your ears, no NOT AT ALL. If you get the most satisfaction by knowing theoretically you got the closest to neutrality you can get then GREAT. But what bugs me is when those audiophiles come tell every1 that neutrality etc is the way to go and if you think otherwise you're just stupid. Tolerance, that's a word for you all to think about. I've accepted people's different ways of looking at this hobby, don't be that guy that thinks my point of view is the only right way and it would be a lot friendlier place.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Why do all audio professionals assume neutrality is the way to go? 
 
...
 
Well I belong to those people who completely disregard the theories and judge the gear by what I hear/percieve because for me that's the way that leads to optimal satisfaction in this hobby based on experience, I go with what my ears want to hear, not what I think they would like to hear. 
 
...
 
Tolerance, that's a word for you all to think about. I've accepted people's different ways of looking at this hobby, don't be that guy that thinks my point of view is the only right way and it would be a lot friendlier place.

It's better to continue this discussion in the appropriate thread, which is this one (and I highly recommend you read that thread--it'll explain a lot of things):
http://www.head-fi.org/t/564465/misconception-of-neutral-accurate#post_7634871
 
But I'll answer your questions here for now, and if you feel like continuing, please let's do it in the proper thread and not derail this one again.
 
To answer your questions:

-Neutrality is the goal because it is the only way to ensure an industry standard for manufacturing and design to reference from. For example, even though no two brands or models of television will display identical results, they all follow an industry standard so that they are not grossly different in how they depict colors and values and details. Watch your favorite movie on one, and that movie should look about the same on another TV that's designed/manufactured to industry standard--in other words, to be accurate and neutral within an acceptable limit. It's the same with audio equipment. Even though components and design will cause every product and model to be slightly different, but if all the companies did not try to aim for accuracy/neutrality, then all the products out there would be so drastically from each other that there would be no common ground or baseline of quality control. 
 
-Audio professionals do not have the luxury to go with arbitrary preferences in a lot of situations. It is not a hobby for them--it is their career and life-long passion, and they have set of guidelines to follow for certain things. Professionals have to adhere to industry standards and shoot for the utmost accuracy/neutrality within the capability of their gear/skill/knowledge. Now, mind you, this is different from intentional coloration (whether in gears or in production)--it is the baseline that intentional coloration is riding on top of. If you don't know what the baseline is, then you don't know how/where/why you're introducing the coloration. That baseline, is accuracy/neutrality. On top of that baseline, you're free to be as subjective as you want, as long as you can find an audience who agrees with your subjectivity, such as mastering a very warm sounding record, or producing a devices that has desirable and musical subjective coloration. But remember, these subjectivity are only subjective because we have a baseline standard of accuracy/neutrality, otherwise we would have have nothing to compare subjectivity to. 
 
-People who have lots of knowledge about this stuff are trying to help you and educate you, not subjugate you. If you don't want their help and don't want to gain higher understanding, then that's fine too; no one is forcing you. Music is after all just a hobby to you, not a career or a true calling in life, so it's fine to just enjoy things as you see fit. When/if music becomes an all-consuming passion that you live and breathe and make sacrifices in your life for, then you'll automatically start to care about these things at a different level. 
 
-If you like subjective coloration, that's perfectly fine. No one said it isn't. As long as you understand you are deviating away from that baseline standard and don't mind it, then that's fine. But a lot of people who aren't educated about this stuff would love to learn and benefit from the information, and some of them do find that they prefer accuracy/neutrality once they've had a taste of it. Many would never go back to prominent coloration once they've experienced something closer to accuracy/neutrality--it's like an ear-opening experience for them. It's a matter of personal choice, and as a hobbyist, you have the luxury of not having to adhere to any standards. Professionals don't have that choice (again, creative coloration and baseline standards are two separate issues).
 
 
 

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Yes I agree with you on those aspects but looks like you didn't read my post properly and responded too quick. I was speaking of how neutrality isn't important when you're just listening to your music collection at home and aren't the producer, then neutrality doesn't have to be what gives you the best possible satisfaction. Producing music and listening to it are entirely different, now you only seem to speak about the producing part which I completely agree with you but I was referring to when listening to your own music collection at home when you're not at work and don't have to constantly worry about being close enough to that baseline. I'm not a producer and won't ever be, there's a lot more people out there that just listens to music and want to enjoy it as much as possible. Of course you shouldn't colorize the recordings to your own prefers when being the producer (unless you're trying to target a certain audience on purpose), then you would do the wrong thing but yea I wasn't speaking of that. It's just I've seen quite a few audiophiles even thinking neutrality is always the way to go whatever you're the producer OR the guy enjoying your personal music collection at home.
 
But yea let's leave this discussion for that other thread (I just had to clear things up)

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

 It's just I've seen quite a few audiophiles even thinking neutrality is always the way to go whatever you're the producer OR the guy enjoying your personal music collection at home.
 
 

This goes back to the whole thing about TV's. If someone really likes the color green, should he adjust his television so that everything is displayed with a greenish cast? He could say, "I don't care what the cinematographer and director tried to capture and express, what what skin tone should look like on that person--I like green, and I want everything to have a greenish tone." 
 
It might seem like an absurd argument, but logically, it's quite similar to intentionally coloring one's sound a certain way. You're saying, "I don't care what the musicians and producers and master engineers tried to capture and express--I like lots of (insert bass, treble, mids, whatever) and I want all the music I listen to have that coloration."
 
I'm not making a judgment here--just explaining how things look on my end. You absolutely do not have to agree with me. 
 
Look, it's not like I don't understand the allure of subjective coloration in sound. I owned the D7000 for a while and I really enjoyed that sub-bass resonance it had because it was very satisfying, but in the end, I didn't want everything I listened to to be colored that way, so I sold it. I like to hear how different producers, mastering engineers, regional production techniques, even stylistic approaches to production that differs between countries--how they all sound unique and different, with their own flavor. Whenever I introduce prominent subject coloring, it will homogenize them all to a certain degree, causing them to lose some of their uniqueness. That is why I treasure accuracy/neutrality--it's a clear starting point that allows me to hear everything as the people who created them intended. If this is not for you  then that's ok. As long as you enjoy yourself and have fun.