[hakuzen]

Seems like the "foams" settles the zs6.
Also there should be significant mid bass

Can you put 2 graphs together
1) ZS5v1 stock and with foam
2) ZS6 + Foam
3) ZS6 stock
If it's not too troublesome?

 

[Fox2twenty]

can't find the foam in ZST.
i've been playing with quantity of foam in ES3. it tames the mid frequencies of the dynamic driver (from 1.5kHz to 3.5kHz). the more foam, the more cut.
but the biggest tonal difference of ES3 respect ZST, ZS5, and ZS6, is the big peak at 5kHz (about 9dB higher!). wasn't that the main frequency of sibilance?

Spoiler: FR of ES3 mods vs ZST/ZS5/ZS6

I love the he graphs

 

[Fox2twenty]

Spoiler: ZS5/ZS6 - stetotip/foam FR

Wow, the foams really make a predictable cut to the treble spike.

These are cool! Thanks man!

 

[vector84]

can't find the foam in ZST.
i've been playing with quantity of foam in ES3. it tames the mid frequencies of the dynamic driver (from 1.5kHz to 3.5kHz). the more foam, the more cut.
but the biggest tonal difference of ES3 respect ZST, ZS5, and ZS6, is the big peak at 5kHz (about 9dB higher!). wasn't that the main frequency of sibilance?

Spoiler: FR of ES3 mods vs ZST/ZS5/ZS6

5-8kHz is indeed typically associated with sibilance, but I think boosting around 5kHz also helps speech intelligibility quite a bit?

And sibilance can occur well outside of that range in either direction, as even though it tends to be considered narrow band noise in the context of speech, it typically carries a fair amount of energy well outside its characteristic peak:
https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/10.htm

 

[hakuzen]

5-8kHz is indeed typically associated with sibilance, but I think boosting around 5kHz also helps speech intelligibility quite a bit?

And sibilance can occur well outside of that range in either direction, as even though it tends to be considered narrow band noise in the context of speech, it typically carries a fair amount of energy well outside its characteristic peak:
https://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/10.htm

thanks!!

 

[Viber]

Wonderful tune mastered and recorded at the gem of the PNW — KEXP, sounds excellent on the ZS5v1's.

Gotta say i'm digging the rock songs on this thread.
Didn't know about KEXP youtube channel, thanks.

 

[randomnin]

Going back to the discussion of tuning earlier, and how some people think that the squiggly lines in frequency response graphs denote poor tuning......I thought that phones were tuned that way on purpose, to produce a more level listening experience, owing to the fact that our ears hear the different frequencies at different levels. If you look at the graphs on this site - http://www.feilding.net/sfuad/musi3012-01/html/lectures/007_hearing_II.htm the peaks in IEM frequencies seem to be compensating for the dips in our hearing at these frequencies. In other words, KZ IEMS (in common with other IEMS) are actually tuned this way to sound good and not just thrown together with random drivers.....or have I missed the point?

Of course what is written in that lecture is true, however it doesn't seem like KZ have paid much attention to those graphs either. If we use that data, then there should've been a steady drop from bass to other frequencies, but that's not what we see here. They more likely have found a single signature that seems good by ear to most people and have been using it ever since ZST (judging from hakuzen's awesome collection of graphs of KZ hybrids), maybe even earlier.

 

[randomnin]

There's no simple answer to this. Live sound is a directional experience (and has elements of touch in addition to hearing). Headphones and IEMs are not. In theory planars come closer but it's still not the same.

It would probably be helpful for you to understand the nature of our perception of directional sound. In a live sound environment acoustic reflections produce gain and damping factors in relation to specific frequencies relative to others, these colorations along with stereo audio cues are decoded by our brain to place the sound in space while adjusting it to its "proper" coloration/tonality. This process is simply not possible when the speakers are strapped to your head - what you perceive as directionality then is a combination then of stereo cues (timing and volume bias) and whatever portion of the audio stream your brain chooses to decode as positional information, largely based on hints from those same stereo cues (which can include the coloration itself being interpreted as spatial information)

You can find all sorts of research on this subject but we are yet again well off track for this thread

Different hearing biases and preferences and different opinions on what monitoring and reference means in different contexts - musicians on stage might want a specific bias for any variety of reasons, for example.

And a healthy dose of marketing voodoo. BAs by nature produce sound at increased electrical efficiency (lower power use). You can attach all sorts of other contextual connotations to them, but that is what they were designed to do, plain and simple.

Oh,so would it be correct, if I concluded that all this expressive language regarding space, depth and positioning is unwarranted when it comes to IEMs?

 

[eaglesgift]

Of course what is written in that lecture is true, however it doesn't seem like KZ have paid much attention to those graphs either. If we use that data, then there should've been a steady drop from bass to other frequencies, but that's not what we see here. They more likely have found a single signature that seems good by ear to most people and have been using it ever since ZST (judging from hakuzen's awesome collection of graphs of KZ hybrids), maybe even earlier.

Why should there be a steady drop from bass to higher frequencies? That's what's happening in our ears - the frequency response of phones should be the mirror image of that (assuming a neutral sound was being aimed for) not the same. My main point was that a flat FR would sound awful and the high frequency peaks are roughly where our high frequency dips in hearing ability are.

 

[randomnin]

Why should there be a steady drop from bass to higher frequencies? That's what's happening in our ears - the frequency response of phones should be the mirror image of that (assuming a neutral sound was being aimed for) not the same. My main point was that a flat FR would sound awful and the high frequency peaks are roughly where our high frequency dips in hearing ability are.

Definitely not at 2kHz, where comes the first weird peak.

 

[CYoung234]

As a comparison, the Zs6 is a bit like the Fostex T50rp of the IEM world. It has a very strong base but isn't a perfect product. For those willing to play with modding, they both represent a starting point that can create something that sounds way better than the price if you are willing to do the work. On the other hand, I've never heard anyone say that the modified T50rp is better than an LCD-4 and nor will a Zs6 ever dethrone something like the Noble Katana. The fun of the Zs6 is that a $50 entry fee can get you into a $100 to $150 show.

First, my ZS6s are not here yet, so my comments will compare the ZS5. Your comparison to the Fostex T50RP is interesting, as I own a pair that I modded myself. I have never heard the LCD4. Frankly, the T50RP sounded like garbage unmodified, but pretty much glorious when properly modified. The ZS5 and I assume ZS6 have lots of potential. But, for me, the ZS5 sounds quite good right out of the box. So, they are not really a fair comparison from that standpoint.

But, I think your point was that both are great bargains, and compare very well with more expensive products. For me, given that all audio systems are imperfect simulations of real life, it has never been worth paying for that last 5%, when you can get 95% of the effect for 10x or 50x less money...

 

[vector84]

Oh,so would it be correct, if I concluded that all this expressive language regarding space, depth and positioning is unwarranted when it comes to IEMs?

Not at all - though it is why people take issue with 3D imaging descriptions (Z axis) - much of that data is considered to be a result of the FR variance of the headphone/IEM itself, so those are more "fake" as it were, but that's still not a good enough answer honestly and research by groups like Harman and InnerFidelity continues on the subject.

As for non-3D positioning (besides the obvious stereo cues, volume panning and delay), most of what I've seen currently relates it strongly to a combination of phase coherence and your brain's ability to recognize the reflections in a recording and correlate them with phase data to properly restore some pitches at least. For example if your brain is trained to hear the generic HRTF convolution used in positional audio for PC gaming, you're far more likely to be able to recognize it and take cues from it.

 

[vector84]

Definitely not at 2kHz, where comes the first weird peak.

You should check out some Harman and InnerFidelity research. That peak makes you feel like you're in a room, instead of playing sound from infinity and beyond.

 

[mrmoto050]

Well, I received my Z6's Saturday and popped them in OOB and they sounded decent. Swapped out tips for Comply's and wow.
Overall imopression (IMHO), very fluid and airy layers of instruments (especially drums) very clear no distortions. Extremely satisfied. Source DX200 AMP1.
Just remember that everyone has different perception to sound, but these are definitely a keeper. Have been listening exclusively for last 2 days.

 

[snip3r77]

Well, I received my Z6's Saturday and popped them in OOB and they sounded decent. Swapped out tips for Comply's and wow.
Overall imopression (IMHO), very fluid and airy layers of instruments (especially drums) very clear no distortions. Extremely satisfied. Source DX200 AMP1.
Just remember that everyone has different perception to sound, but these are definitely a keeper. Have been listening exclusively for last 2 days.

I'd wait for GB discount