[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif as good as they may be, paying 1000$ is not cheap any way you look at it. .

I heartily disagree. The JH13 is cheap relative to the other super-high-end headphones with which it can compete sonically:

HE90: $6000+amp/transformer
Qualia: $3000+
R10: $6000+
L3000: $3500+
Omega II: $2000+amp/transformer

and so on...

From a different perspective, there is certainly nothing out there better than the JH13 at $1k.

While $1k is not cheap in an absolute sense, it is cheap for the level of performance the JH13 provides (let alone the custom-fit). It saved me about $3k over the headphone I used to own, sounds better, and is more comfortable to boot. If that's not a deal, I don't know what is!

 

[shigzeo]

plus, most of the high end portable amps are already damn fine amps which don't need to go to 1000$ - if they did, it is doubtful other than placebo if anything could actually improve.

i find portable amps help heaps when listening to inner ear phones of any sort - enough that when i go back to life without the amp, it is immediately noticeable, but it is never taken outside. the problem is that pocket-portability is sacrificed completely along with the hassle of hauling protective equipment and making sure not to snap connectors etc... tough life.

 

[hockeyb213]

Most portable equipment is going to in the more affordable direction not the other way around if you guys have been looking around

 

[FYJX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyb213 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Most portable equipment is going to in the more affordable direction not the other way around if you guys have been looking around

Definitely true. Everything audio wise is basically getting better and better at a cheaper and cheaper price.

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer /img/forum/go_quote.gif I heartily disagree. The JH13 is cheap relative to the other super-high-end headphones with which it can compete sonically: HE90: $6000+amp/transformer Qualia: $3000+ R10: $6000+ L3000: $3500+ Omega II: $2000+amp/transformer and so on... From a different perspective, there is certainly nothing out there better than the JH13 at $1k. While $1k is not cheap in an absolute sense, it is cheap for the level of performance the JH13 provides (let alone the custom-fit). It saved me about $3k over the headphone I used to own, sounds better, and is more comfortable to boot. If that's not a deal, I don't know what is!

I strongly disagree, but with a couple of important qualifiers.

It really depends on how you want to analyze the outlay of costs. Your L3000 was much more expensive than the JH13, but if you compare what you paid for it with what you recovered when you sold it, I would imagine that you likely didn't lose any money.

Perhaps it cost a few hundred dollars for the use of the headphone over the period you owned it? I'd be surprised if it was even that much, and would speculate that you may have even made money to listen to it...

Of course, this doesn't capture the fact that you have to be willing to outlay a significantly larger amount of $$ for the headphone. There is a legitimate point to be made in favor of the JH13 on that basis.

I said it before, but the JH13 (and other high-end IEM's) are probably the costliest audio components in all of head-fi. They're unsellable and they supposedly don't last for more than four or five years before they're unusable.

I'm not saying they're not worth it. But I think that the true economics of their ownership isn't being correctly apprehended.

 

[hifidk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones /img/forum/go_quote.gif I strongly disagree, but with a couple of important qualifiers. It really depends on how you want to analyze the outlay of costs. Your L3000 was much more expensive than the JH13, but if you compare what you paid for it with what you recovered when you sold it, I would imagine that you likely didn't lose any money. Perhaps it cost a few hundred dollars for the use of the headphone over the period you owned it? I'd be surprised if it was even that much, and would speculate that you may have even made money to listen to it... Of course, this doesn't capture the fact that you have to be willing to outlay a significantly larger amount of $$ for the headphone. There is a legitimate point to be made in favor of the JH13 on that basis. I said it before, but the JH13 (and other high-end IEM's) are probably the costliest audio components in all of head-fi. They're unsellable and they supposedly don't last for more than four or five years before they're unusable. I'm not saying they're not worth it. But I think that the true economics of their ownership isn't being correctly apprehended.

I agree most of what you said. However, company like alienears.com allows you to sell your custom IEM to someone else. The person who buy the used custom IEM can just send the monitors with his/her ear impression and alienears will re-shell the used drivers. Of course, they charge you much less than the new product. I highly doubt that any other major custom IEM companies would do this yet, but in the future, if there is enough competition, this might happen. However, even with this kind of reselling customs happens, you will still lose much more money than selling back L3000.

 

[C.L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajreynol /img/forum/go_quote.gif How can I summarize my feelings right now. this gif explains it well. The excitement = reading through the thread and thinking I might have found a good replacement for my inexpensive Shure in-ears. The fall from grace = the price revelation. Carry on, gentlemen.

NICE GIF!!! LOL

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the cost of these high-end IEM's is understated in a lot of these discussions. They're easily the priciest audio components in all of head-fi (with the current exception of singlepower amps! ) . When people mention how the JH13's are comparable to very expensive headphones, for me, that's par for the course, considering they're likely more expensive once you consider zero re-sale and their supposedly shorter lifespan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones /img/forum/go_quote.gif I strongly disagree, but with a couple of important qualifiers. It really depends on how you want to analyze the outlay of costs. Your L3000 was much more expensive than the JH13, but if you compare what you paid for it with what you recovered when you sold it, I would imagine that you likely didn't lose any money. Perhaps it cost a few hundred dollars for the use of the headphone over the period you owned it? I'd be surprised if it was even that much, and would speculate that you may have even made money to listen to it... Of course, this doesn't capture the fact that you have to be willing to outlay a significantly larger amount of $$ for the headphone. There is a legitimate point to be made in favor of the JH13 on that basis. I said it before, but the JH13 (and other high-end IEM's) are probably the costliest audio components in all of head-fi. They're unsellable and they supposedly don't last for more than four or five years before they're unusable. I'm not saying they're not worth it. But I think that the true economics of their ownership isn't being correctly apprehended.

Totally agree.

I've stated before that I think that for the average hi-fi enthusiast/ audiophile, custom IEM's and more specifically High-end customs are NOT the best investment and are not recommended, it's a luxury item -- Zero re-sale value, amongst other things, and there's added costs already discussed.

Some of the current high-end universals like the UM3X offer incredible SQ & comfort for $330, which is NOT cheap either. However, it almost seems like the high-end universal IEM's are becoming the equivalent of a Big Mac or Double Whopper -- certainly seems that way at times on this thread.

I simply cannot believe it when a couple of head-fiers here have stated that the JH13's are a bargain or should cost at least $1,500. Of course, when you have unlimited funds and have already spent thousands on other gear $1,100 may seem like a bargain, but not for many audiophiles.

Yes, I know R&D is not free, but when you think of the cost of materials plus a certain % of R&D that went into that product, custom-made shells, and so on, I still think $1,100 is far too much. I'm sure there are many professional musicians out there who'd NOT be prepared to pay such amounts of money for the JH13's ($1,100), UE11($1,150), and possibly even the ES3X, though the latter can be had for $800, which is quite a significant price difference.

 

[Xeon [09]]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C.L /img/forum/go_quote.gif NICE GIF!!! LOL

Yes, omg that is hilarious!!

 

[ajreynol]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C.L /img/forum/go_quote.gif NICE GIF!!! LOL

hey man. the treadmill that is this thread and the price tag associated was moving much faster than I thought it was when I tried to jump on.

Flying house shoes was the result.

Gif is as accurate as anything else I could have found.

 

[hifidk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_4321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Totally agree. I've stated before that I think that for the average hi-fi enthusiast/ audiophile, custom IEM's and more specifically High-end customs are NOT the best investment and are not recommended, it's a luxury item -- Zero re-sale value, amongst other things, and there's added costs already discussed. Some of the current high-end universals like the UM3X offer incredible SQ & comfort for $330, which is NOT cheap either. However, it almost seems like the high-end universal IEM's are becoming the equivalent of a Big Mac or Double Whopper -- certainly seems that way at times on this thread. I simply cannot believe it when a couple of head-fiers here have stated that the JH13's are a bargain or should cost at least $1,500. Of course, when you have unlimited funds and have already spent thousands on other gear $1,100 may seem like a bargain, but not for many audiophiles. Yes, I know R&D is not free, but when you think of the cost of materials plus a certain % of R&D that went into that product, custom-made shells, and so on, I still think $1,100 is far too much. I'm sure there are many professional musicians out there who'd NOT be prepared to pay such amounts of money for the JH13's ($1,100), UE11($1,150), and possibly even the ES3X, though the latter can be had for $800, which is quite a significant price difference.

But as a company, they will try to make as much profit as they can. So, as long as there is enough demand, they will charge what they are charging now and unlikely lower the price just because majority of audiophiles can't afford it. So, as long as there is enough people who consider these "bargain" I guess the price will be considered as fair.

On the other perspective, if they really offer what other high-end headphones offer, then I would consider them as "bargain" even if I can't afford them easily.

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_4321 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Totally agree. I've stated before that I think that for the average hi-fi enthusiast/ audiophile, custom IEM's and more specifically High-end customs are NOT the best investment and are not recommended, it's a luxury item -- Zero re-sale value, amongst other things, and there's added costs already discussed. Some of the current high-end universals like the UM3X offer incredible SQ & comfort for $330, which is NOT cheap either. However, it almost seems like the high-end universal IEM's are becoming the equivalent of a Big Mac or Double Whopper -- certainly seems that way at times on this thread. I simply cannot believe it when a couple of head-fiers here have stated that the JH13's are a bargain or should cost at least $1,500. Of course, when you have unlimited funds and have already spent thousands on other gear $1,100 may seem like a bargain, but not for many audiophiles. Yes, I know R&D is not free, but when you think of the cost of materials plus a certain % of R&D that went into that product, custom-made shells, and so on, I still think $1,100 is far too much. I'm sure there are many professional musicians out there who'd NOT be prepared to pay such amounts of money for the JH13's ($1,100), UE11($1,150), and possibly even the ES3X, though the latter can be had for $800, which is quite a significant price difference.

Another factor that doesn't get much consideration when discussing the cost issue is the speed at which IEM technology is changing. I find it particularly striking, as I started at head-fi around the time that IEM's were really starting to gain a lot of attention, but then went on hiatus for a couple of years. The contrast between the level of interest and technology then, and where things are now, is like night and day.

In the six months that I've been 'back', I've observed the top universal IEM go from the W3/IE8 to the UM3X, and the top custom go from (arguably) the ES3X to the JH13. It might be more fair to characterize these changes in terms of FOTM status, as the quality improvement level is debatable, but that popular status has very real effects on the value of these items in the used market.

Like yourself, I'm not trying to paint a gloomy picture about the intrinsic value of custom IEM's. If you've got the money and you think it's worth it, all the power to you and I'll try my best to hide my jealousy.

That being said, I agree with you about the insular effect head-fi can have on people's perceptions of value. Going back to the effect of the passage of time on this sector of audio technology, it's clear to me that this segment of the market is in a rapid state of transition.

In the last year we've seen the introduction of an entirely new class of custom IEM that competes at the price level of high-end universals. Just wait a year to see what this developing niche in the market does to the relative value of these high end customs. Already I'm tempted to get a pair of UM3X's re-shelled for half the cost of the ES3X.

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hifidk /img/forum/go_quote.gif But as a company, they will try to make as much profit as they can. So, as long as there is enough demand, they will charge what they are charging now and unlikely lower the price just because majority of audiophiles can't afford it. So, as long as there is enough people who consider these "bargain" I guess the price will be considered as fair.

You make very valid points.

Yes, they will make as much profit as they can as long as there's demand for it at those prices - very true, but that doesn't make it right or fair for the consumer.

Quote:

On the other perspective, if they really offer what other high-end headphones offer, then I would consider them as "bargain" even if I can't afford them easily.

Yes, but if you consider that those other expensive phones may well be overpriced as well, then the JH13's/UE11(and possibly the ES3X's) may be seen as a relative bargain.

But, as stated elsewhere, those full-sized headphones may retain their value or become even more expensive, so as an investment they are better than these customs that will last a few years and from the moment you buy them they have no re-sale value. Also, you can share/ lend your full-sized headphones or universal IEM's, whereas with custom IEM's you simply can't.

 

[jelt2359]

music_4321:

I admire your constant reminders of the Law of Diminishing Returns. Esp. when you get newcomers (like myself) to the forum, who may not be tuned into the need to 'unplug from head-fi and just enjoy your music' (there's a dude with a Pila nick that I saw a while back in this thread having buyer remorse over his ES3X, for instance... who would probably have been happier had he just left head-fi).

For some, after sifting through pages and pages of 'this is the best thing since sliced bread', your posts come as a reminder that the diminished marginal returns that the JH13 Pro offers over, for instance, a UM3X, may not be worth the price you pay.

There are two groups here on head-fi- newbies who compare the JH13 Pro to top universals, and experienced hands who are comparing the JH13 Pro to more expensive headphones. While your posts may not be relevant for the latter group, they certainly count as important information for the former.

 

[tigon_ridge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jelt2359 /img/forum/go_quote.gif music_4321: I admire your constant reminders of the Law of Diminishing Returns. Esp. when you get newcomers (like myself) to the forum, who may not be tuned into the need to 'unplug from head-fi and just enjoy your music' (there's a dude with a Pila nick that I saw a while back in this thread having buyer remorse over his ES3X, for instance... who would probably have been happier had he just left head-fi). For some, after sifting through pages and pages of 'this is the best thing since sliced bread', your posts come as a reminder that the diminished marginal returns that the JH13 Pro offers over, for instance, a UM3X, may not be worth the price you pay. There are two groups here on head-fi- newbies who compare the JH13 Pro to top universals, and experienced hands who are comparing the JH13 Pro to more expensive headphones. While your posts may not be relevant for the latter group, they certainly count as important information for the former.

I don't get it. What is your point?? Whoever will find his posts relevant will find them relevant; whoever doesn't, doesn't. If you find his "reminders" nagging, or uninteresting, simply do this... ignore it.