[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

 
I take it you've never played in a brass section or performed with a chorus in which you were standing near the sopranos during a forte passage.  Real trebles (including the core frequencies within the treble clef) aren't always soft, sweet and polite. 
 
Having been involved in serious amateur, and occasionally professional music (a few big time film scores, including Home Alone 2, and some operas with the LA Opera Co.), as a performer for more than 20 years, my take is that the HD800's give a far more honest and nuanced presentation to trebles than the LCD-2's.  Ears and opinions legitimately vary, but I imagine there are a number of us with well trained ears and music backgrounds who prefer top tier dynamics to orthos.  I'll give my standard disclaimer: I still like the LCD-2's a lot.  They are great phones, but I think they are over-hyped and defended against any and all criticism (no matter how minor or how accurate) to the point of absurdity on this forum.
 
Every time I see a speculative comment suggesting that "recording engineers" prefer LCD-2's, I think to myself, even assuming that statement were true, the unidentified recording engineers probably like these phones because they are used to listening to music with a glass wall between themselves and the talent.  
 

So you prefer to reference sound in a large ambient environment and I prefer to reference sound from a smaller sound treated rehearsal room... better still, how will your performances sound outdoors where you are not listening to a room?  That's cool I like my K701s for the same reason you prefer the HD800s because...
 

 
Quote:

I'm not sure what you mean?  The 650s and the 701s are polar opposites, in both treble and bass output.
 
USG
 

 

...there has been not a single complaint of sibilance in the K701 that I can recall...much like the HD650s in this explicit area. 
 
Then again, I think the HD800 is neutral through the mids, more so than the T1 and K701.  The HD800 to me is nothing like the K701, it sounds like a much brighter HD650 to me.  I also agree with upstateguy the T1 I heard reminded me a lot like the HD650 but with a trace less full of a midrange, bass and treble were like almost the same to me on those two cans.  To keep things on track, I have heard nothing neutral in the bass until the LCD2s came along...

 

[johnwmclean]

Quote:

I take it you've never played in a brass section or performed with a chorus in which you were standing near the sopranos during a forte passage.  Real trebles (including the core frequencies within the treble clef) aren't always soft, sweet and polite. 
 
Having been involved in serious amateur, and occasionally professional music (a few big time film scores, including Home Alone 2, and some operas with the LA Opera Co.), as a performer for more than 20 years, my take is that the HD800's give a far more honest and nuanced presentation to trebles than the LCD-2's.  Ears and opinions legitimately vary, but I imagine there are a number of us with well trained ears and music backgrounds who prefer top tier dynamics to orthos.  I'll give my standard disclaimer: I still like the LCD-2's a lot.  They are great phones, but I think they are over-hyped and defended against any and all criticism (no matter how minor or how accurate) to the point of absurdity on this forum.
 
Every time I see a speculative comment suggesting that "recording engineers" prefer LCD-2's, I think to myself, even assuming that statement were true, the unidentified recording engineers probably like these phones because they are used to listening to music with a glass wall between themselves and the talent.  
 

I disagree. Anyone who has hearing can evaluate a headphone you don’t have to be a professional fancy pants. Just click your fingers, hear that natural snap and flesh sound. Simple as that. Having less in a headphone is better than one that adds. Work it out.
 

 

[oqvist]

Been playing around trumpets and trombones. Never harsh unless they act silly and put it in your ear lol.

 

[Sophonax]

Interesting -- I had two pairs of T1s in the past, and although I couldn't be sure (almost a year elapsed between my listening impressions of each), I could swear my first ones sounded much better.  The funny thing is, my first pair was a 13xx serial number, and the second was I think a 19xx.  The 19xx sounded tinny with very bright, fatiguing treble (more treble than the HD800) and a somewhat weak bass.  The 13xx, on the other hand, sounded really great -- smooth gorgeous mids, very detailed but mostly non-fatiguing highs (less treble than the HD800), and a fuller bass response.  It sounded so good in fact that the only reason I chose my HD800 over the 13xx T1 was because I found the HD800 more comfortable.
 
So go figure -- no idea what's going on with the T1.

 

[Skylab]

I have never heard a recent pair of T1's, and my pair is one of the very first. But it certainly had no treble sharpness issues - I always found it remarkably smooth in frequency response, and the treble especially I found smoother and less fatiguing than the HD800 for example. That said, I prefer the LCD-2 and HE-500's treble response, which I find even smoother than the T1.

 

[Wedge]

Rob, now that you have the WA-22 though, I bet those HD-800s are a lot less fatiguing than they used to be.  

 

[Skylab]

Yeah, at least now I can sometimes enjoy the HD-800

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I have trouble with the treble of the T1. I like them, but there's just something that doesn't gel with me. The measurements show a lot of ringing that would, in other similar cases I've seen, be heard as a tizzy and bright sound. But the T1 doesn't really do that.  It does seem smooth to my ears, which is surprising given themeasurements. I'll be reviewing them soon, and will do some very careful listening, but I think the problem is that Beyer just hasn't quite got the driver under control yet. 

 

[Frank I]

 
Quote:

I have trouble with the treble of the T1. I like them, but there's just something that doesn't gel with me. The measurements show a lot of ringing that would, in other similar cases I've seen, be heard as a tizzy and bright sound. But the T1 doesn't really do that.  It does seem smooth to my ears, which is surprising given themeasurements. I'll be reviewing them soon, and will do some very careful listening, but I think the problem is that Beyer just hasn't quite got the driver under control yet. 

 
Tyll as you can see measurements can sometimes not tell the whole story and perhaps that is why your puzzled. I have seen measurements in Stereophile who I respect put out a couple of nasty measurements and yet the products sounded really good. In the ten months i owned the T1 I thought the treble was fantastic. It was pristine especially on cymbals and also Hammond Organ which can really test the treble of any headphone with their high frequency capability sounded fantastic. A good recording for that is Modern Cool by Patricia Barber which was recorded hot in the treble but the T1 let you know it but does not get nasty. try that same recording on the Hd800 and it made me sell them. I think your work is a huge help here and really enjoy your reviews.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Tyll as you can see measurements can sometimes not tell the whole story and perhaps that is why your puzzled.

 
Not puzzled as much as intrigued. I know that measurements don't tell the whole story, and in the end it's the listening that counts, but the measurements remain valid. To me the interesting thing is the comparison of the two, and seeing if I can identify sonic characteristics that bear out the measured data. There's clearly something inaccurate in the treble, the question is: How do you hear it? I like the fact that tube amps are more highly distorted than SS amps as a rule, and I still love the sound. What is it in the signal itself that tickles our fancy even if it's not "right?" Quite a phenomenon. 
 
Unlike most objectivists --- and I count myself among their numbers --- I do feel that the human hearing system is subtler and more exquisite in its sensitivities than measurement gear ... at least in so far as it's perception is not tied directly to measured data. We hear and are pleased in degrees that follow a different metric than objective testing measures. That fascinates me.
 
 

 

[NewMACAdress]

Quote:

I disagree. Anyone who has hearing can evaluate a headphone you don’t have to be a professional fancy pants. Just click your fingers, hear that natural snap and flesh sound. Simple as that. Having less in a headphone is better than one that adds. Work it out.
 

I totally agree.  I have been trying to think of a way to put that in Leman's Terms lol.  I am curious as to how people can jumble around on these post and make a rubix cube out of this. 
Plain and simple a headphone sounds the exact way that it sounds.(lol) people try saying that it sounds like this but really they are wrong and so is the person that says the opposite.  Does anyone know for sure what the headphone definitely sounds like?
I've never had that opportunity.
What could happen is people could make a post about what headphone they have and then what they are listening through and then only people with the EXACT same headphones and setup should comment and conversate about  different things they hear.
As soon as someone comes into the thread and says (i would really like everyone to invision joe rogan's stand up where he talks like the dumb child hearing about noah and the arc) "not unh duh, it sounds like dis.  I know because i heard it. haha i'm right) and they don't even have the equipment set up that the thread is about should be kicked from from the forum(not banned just can't comment on it)
Just saying
 

 

[nierika]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NewMACAdress /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Leman's Terms lol.

 

[NewMACAdress]

Funny i'm sure.  While i have never had the need to use the phrase, i just typed without looking it up.  I apologize SOO much.  Let me correct incompetent and worthless self by spelling it right just for you.
Layman's Terms.
You could have just told me

 

[upstateguy]

 
Quote:

 

That might explain my experience.
 

I think you may have a new T1. My experience with the T1 was one of the worst experiences I've had in audio. The T1 I had had no bass, recessed midrange, and incomparable vocal sibilance. Nothing close to neutral and that was through tubes touted as "so warm it will cure all treble." Until someone figures out what's going on, I won't be touching another T1.

That's exactly what my 17XX T-1 sounded like.  My 45XX are more 650 like, with plenty of bass and a really nice airy treble and midrange.
 
I should also mention that the headband change was as dramatic as the sound change.


Quote:

I'm pretty sure yours was defective. Mine isn't "new", but it's "newer". I think they're well over 4K now, mine is ~3.5k. But yes no bass and recessed midrange are absolutely not what I'm hearing. 

In that case there's a lot of defective T-1s out there..........
 

 

[LugBug1]

 
Quote:

I take it you've never played in a brass section or performed with a chorus in which you were standing near the sopranos during a forte passage.  Real trebles (including the core frequencies within the treble clef) aren't always soft, sweet and polite. 
 
Having been involved in serious amateur, and occasionally professional music (a few big time film scores, including Home Alone 2, and some operas with the LA Opera Co.), as a performer for more than 20 years, my take is that the HD800's give a far more honest and nuanced presentation to trebles than the LCD-2's.  Ears and opinions legitimately vary, but I imagine there are a number of us with well trained ears and music backgrounds who prefer top tier dynamics to orthos.  I'll give my standard disclaimer: I still like the LCD-2's a lot.  They are great phones, but I think they are over-hyped and defended against any and all criticism (no matter how minor or how accurate) to the point of absurdity on this forum.
 
Every time I see a speculative comment suggesting that "recording engineers" prefer LCD-2's, I think to myself, even assuming that statement were true, the unidentified recording engineers probably like these phones because they are used to listening to music with a glass wall between themselves and the talent.  
 

 
Quote:

I disagree. Anyone who has hearing can evaluate a headphone you don’t have to be a professional fancy pants. Just click your fingers, hear that natural snap and flesh sound. Simple as that. Having less in a headphone is better than one that adds. Work it out.
 

I agree with what Sceptic is saying about natural treble, and it could explain why people prefer both the LCD2 and 650 for classical music. Brass when played live is sibilant at the top end, it is very sibilant!, so phones that are completely neutral will show this harsh treble for what it is.  
Recording engineers sometimes tame this on modern recordings (too much in my opinion) but that for me is why some phones are "Shelved down". The HD800 (havent heard them) sound to me to be what the HD600 was 10 years ago, as neutral a phone as poss for professional sound engineers and audiophiles alike.   
 
My good friend and fellow musican prefers his cheap $5 sony freebies than all of my headphones... would that be helpful evaluating on here? I think you made that remark simply out of cynicism.