Introducing Final latest flagship IEM A8000 featuring Truly Pure Beryllium Dynamic Driver
post-15465393
Post #31 of 62

audionewbi

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
8,540
Reaction score
2,312
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Posts
8,540
Likes
2,312
@Final Audio When A8000 tonality was getting finalised, what setup (DAC/AMP) did you guys pair it with?
 
     Share This Post       
post-15465532
Post #32 of 62
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
16,910
Reaction score
9,261
Location
Fukuoka, Japan
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Location
Fukuoka, Japan
Posts
16,910
Likes
9,261
Website
www.hear.reviews
Not to mention the effect of different tips on the sound signature.

Here's the part of the CanJam video talking about them. It's interesting that they follow the Harman target curve to a large degree, though I'd call them a bit U-shaped in sound signature.

 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: Cat Music
post-15465980
Post #33 of 62

csglinux

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
2,406
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Posts
3,402
Likes
2,406
This looks like the most interesting product from @jude's video. If only my ears were shaped like square, rectangular boxes :wink:
Its FR looks impressive, but I'm trying to find out if those FR measurements were made with one of the GRAS hi-res couplers. Anybody know? I don't entirely trust GRAS hi-res coupler measurements.
 
     Share This Post       
post-15466081
Post #34 of 62

Jalo

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
3,337
Reaction score
720
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Posts
3,337
Likes
720
The A8000 is fast becoming one of my favorite phones along with the Erlkonig. Originally I was worried about the odd square shape but after using it for the past two weeks, I find it to be very comfortable.

Another characteristic keeps jumping at me is that it is very musical. That is the only descriptive word I can find to convey the experience of listening to A8000. Previously I used the word spatial information to describe the sound and indeed when the sound produced by two instruments from within the left and right sound stage, I can clearly hear the sound moving from left to right giving a very in vivo, stereophonic and amusing feel. Not that other iems cannot do it, but the A8000 can do it so well that it stands out from the whole sound presentation. It shows great timing, and resolution.

Another characteristic I notice is that it has great timbre. A few years ago I was looking for an organ at a music store, the salesman was illustrating a Roland organ with it characteristic. Specifically the Roland uses the Steinway grand piano sound as their piano sound and I can hear the Steinway unique sound being reproduce Including the production of the second and third harmonic sound. It is one thing to reproduce a piano sound, but to reproduce the sound of a certain brand requires very high technicality. The A8000 can do that better than many other totl phones I have like the Sony Z1R or my JVC Fw10000 etc. I attribute that to the A8000’s excellent ultra low THD as Jude talks about in his video and to a very high signal to noise ratio rendering minute details easily perceivable by the listener. That is no small feast of accomplishment as I find this particular capability is observable anywhere within the full sound stage.

Personally I am liking the A8000 as it is and hoping the burning in process will not alter too much of what I am hearing now. I really like the speed and the dynamic aspect of the sound now and hope that after 150 hours these aspects will not change. I am continually to discover other additional characteristic and will share them as I become aware or conscious of them.
 
post-15466329
Post #35 of 62

audionewbi

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
8,540
Reaction score
2,312
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Posts
8,540
Likes
2,312
Regarding THD distortion, I wonder whether luna measures better or A8000 as judging from the video, they are both low.
 
     Share This Post       
post-15466346
Post #36 of 62

kmmbd

100+ Head-Fier
Joined
Jun 18, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
282
Location
Munich, Germany
Joined
Jun 18, 2019
Location
Munich, Germany
Posts
118
Likes
282
Website
medium.com
Regarding THD distortion, I wonder whether luna measures better or A8000 as judging from the video, they are both low.
A8000 is the lowest ever THD that they've measured, so I guess Luna is obviously higher than that (though both are excellent compared to most of the competition it would appear).

I also wonder how will the A8000 hold up against the iSine 20/LCD i4 in terms of THD and equalizability. LCD i4 had phenomenally low THD (which lead to them being highly EQ-able) so if A8000 is as good as, if not better than that - it should lead to some great parametric equalization ability without reaching distortion thresholds.
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: Currawong
post-15466646
Post #37 of 62
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
16,910
Reaction score
9,261
Location
Fukuoka, Japan
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Location
Fukuoka, Japan
Posts
16,910
Likes
9,261
Website
www.hear.reviews
This looks like the most interesting product from @jude's video. If only my ears were shaped like square, rectangular boxes :wink:
Its FR looks impressive, but I'm trying to find out if those FR measurements were made with one of the GRAS hi-res couplers. Anybody know? I don't entirely trust GRAS hi-res coupler measurements.
The ear side is very rounded, and I've found them to be quite comfortable, if not perfectly. I'm going to listen with them for a couple of hours at least today so I can get an idea of comfort.

About the measurements, you should talk to Jude. There are a couple of posts of his around the forums that go into some detail about the issues involved, but from the times I have talked to him about what he has been doing he has put a lot more effort into being thorough and accurate with the measurements than I think most people realise.
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: Final Audio
post-15466680
Post #38 of 62

csglinux

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
2,406
Joined
Jun 4, 2014
Posts
3,402
Likes
2,406
The ear side is very rounded, and I've found them to be quite comfortable, if not perfectly. I'm going to listen with them for a couple of hours at least today so I can get an idea of comfort.

About the measurements, you should talk to Jude. There are a couple of posts of his around the forums that go into some detail about the issues involved, but from the times I have talked to him about what he has been doing he has put a lot more effort into being thorough and accurate with the measurements than I think most people realise.
Thanks for the feedback on the fit @Currawong! I definitely want to try these. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on how they sound...

I know Jude has put a monumental effort into headfi's measurement rig. No disrespect to Jude or Morten Wille (ex GRAS/inventor of the hi-res coupler). The hi-res coupler is a genius invention for designers, but IMHO, it's not suitable for measuring the final FR that will be heard/experienced by real people. You can check this out for yourself with a frequency sweep. The treble is generally going to be hotter (in certain spots) than you'll see from hi-res coupler measurements. There are some comparisons here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/etymotic-er2se-a-reference-headphone-for-your-ears-and-your-couplers.908512/post-15122517

The hi-res coupler's damping can extend far below 10 kHz for shallow-insertion IEMs - which is a category I'm almost certain the A8000 falls into. I might be wrong, but I suspect Jude used the hi-res coupler here. If so, the A8000 is going to sound a bit brighter than Jude's graphs suggest.
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: Currawong
post-15466866
Post #39 of 62

Final Audio

Sponsor: Final
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
24
Reaction score
85
Location
Kawasaki, Japan
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Location
Kawasaki, Japan
Posts
24
Likes
85
Website
snext-final.com
@Final Audio When A8000 tonality was getting finalised, what setup (DAC/AMP) did you guys pair it with?
Like mentioned before in the previous thread, the sound tuning of A8000 was actually decided by calculation and result of PTM, yes there is some minor adjustment made later on, that minor adjustment was made based on the compiled opinion of all staff in Final onto the prototype. Because those opinion is also a part of the PTM research.

In Final, it is not our tradition on making a finalized tuning by pairing it to any particular player because it is not important for us at all. All DAP/DAC/AMP has their own sound signature which are loved by different people based on personal preferences. Tuning an earphone for a specific player simply does not make sense to us. Our earphone should be made for best to everyone.

Our staff use different players based on personal budget and preference too. So if you would like to know which one is used for the finalized tuning? It is a mixture of many opinions from people who are using different devices while listening to the A8000 prototype.

Personally I am liking the A8000 as it is and hoping the burning in process will not alter too much of what I am hearing now. I really like the speed and the dynamic aspect of the sound now and hope that after 150 hours these aspects will not change. I am continually to discover other additional characteristic and will share them as I become aware or conscious of them.
The 150 hours is merely a reference. It is not necessary to be that long. And actually, in Final, we believe that physical burn-in of the earphone actually progresses very fast. What causing the user to feel changes at a longer time normally is caused by the mental burn-in. The human brain tends to get used to our senses. For example, if you have been eating a salty food regularly for a long period of time, most people might feel the other food has become less salty because the brain has set the level of saltiness as a reference. Same with our human hearing too, if you have been listening to a sound for a long period of time, your brain would adapt to it and eventually the initial surprise might become less impactful. This is what we believe in Final, but unfortunately, we have no proof of it. Just for your reference. :)
 
post-15466887
Post #40 of 62

Jalo

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
3,337
Reaction score
720
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Posts
3,337
Likes
720
The 150 hours is merely a reference. It is not necessary to be that long. And actually, in Final, we believe that physical burn-in of the earphone actually progresses very fast. What causing the user to feel changes at a longer time normally is caused by the mental burn-in. The human brain tends to get used to our senses. For example, if you have been eating a salty food regularly for a long period of time, most people might feel the other food has become less salty because the brain has set the level of saltiness as a reference. Same with our human hearing too, if you have been listening to a sound for a long period of time, your brain would adapt to it and eventually the initial surprise might become less impactful. This is what we believe in Final, but unfortunately, we have no proof of it. Just for your reference. :)
Very well said. A few years back I cited a study by Sony that the human audio memory is about 20 seconds. I never could understand how anyone can remember what an iem sounds like a hundred hours ago. Anyone that has done AB testing will know if you wait longer than a few seconds will have to repeat the AB sequence again to regain the sound image of A. What you believe in Final is accurate and true and consistent with our understanding in current neuroscience.
 
Last edited:
     Share This Post       
post-15466967
Post #41 of 62

Wyville

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
3,573
Reaction score
8,867
Location
NL
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Location
NL
Posts
3,573
Likes
8,867
Website
twister6.com
The 150 hours is merely a reference. It is not necessary to be that long. And actually, in Final, we believe that physical burn-in of the earphone actually progresses very fast. What causing the user to feel changes at a longer time normally is caused by the mental burn-in. The human brain tends to get used to our senses. For example, if you have been eating a salty food regularly for a long period of time, most people might feel the other food has become less salty because the brain has set the level of saltiness as a reference. Same with our human hearing too, if you have been listening to a sound for a long period of time, your brain would adapt to it and eventually the initial surprise might become less impactful. This is what we believe in Final, but unfortunately, we have no proof of it. Just for your reference. :)
Yes indeed, the human brain has a great deal of plasticity and it constantly adapts to things we do. That is why we practice things like (for instance) playing the piano, because we have to train our brain to separately control the left and right hand. Do that long enough and it becomes second nature. Similarly, the brain will adjust to the signature of IEMs and that adjustment takes time because there are physical changes at the cellular/molecular level. The more you listen, the stronger those changes become. That is the beauty of biology because it is dynamic and constantly incorporates environmental feedback at a cellular level.

An example I always love is the image of scans of the late Oliver Sacks' brain while he was listening to music from Bach and Beethoven. Sacks grew up listening to Bach and he loves it, something that the image of the scans reveals quite clearly, as a much greater area of the brain is stimulated:
Bach - Beethoven.JPG
(Sorry, I'm a science nerd. :wink: )
 
post-15466973
Post #42 of 62

jmills8

Previously known as bmiamihk
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
11,775
Reaction score
4,268
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Posts
11,775
Likes
4,268
Yes indeed, the human brain has a great deal of plasticity and it constantly adapts to things we do. That is why we practice things like (for instance) playing the piano, because we have to train our brain to separately control the left and right hand. Do that long enough and it becomes second nature. Similarly, the brain will adjust to the signature of IEMs and that adjustment takes time because there are physical changes at the cellular/molecular level. The more you listen, the stronger those changes become. That is the beauty of biology because it is dynamic and constantly incorporates environmental feedback at a cellular level.

An example I always love is the image of scans of the late Oliver Sacks' brain while he was listening to music from Bach and Beethoven. Sacks grew up listening to Bach and he loves it, something that the image of the scans reveals quite clearly, as a much greater area of the brain is stimulated:

(Sorry, I'm a science nerd. :wink: )
So which one was more stupid ?
 
     Share This Post       
post-15467001
Post #43 of 62

Wyville

Headphoneus Supremus
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Messages
3,573
Reaction score
8,867
Location
NL
Joined
Dec 11, 2016
Location
NL
Posts
3,573
Likes
8,867
Website
twister6.com
So which one was more stupid ?
Don't know. I quite like Beethoven myself, but when he composed his 7th some people thought he'd lost the plot completely. I like it though and think it is one of his three best (along with the 3rd and 5th). :wink:
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: jmills8
post-15467012
Post #44 of 62

jmills8

Previously known as bmiamihk
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
11,775
Reaction score
4,268
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Posts
11,775
Likes
4,268
Don't know. I quite like Beethoven myself, but when he composed his 7th some people thought he'd lost the plot completely. I like it though and think it is one of his three best (along with the 3rd and 5th). :wink:
During my high school I put on Classical Music everyday when I got home. It always put me to sleep for my afternoon nap. 100% effective.
 
     Share This Post       
  • Like
Reactions: Wyville
post-15467067
Post #45 of 62
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
16,910
Reaction score
9,261
Location
Fukuoka, Japan
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Location
Fukuoka, Japan
Posts
16,910
Likes
9,261
Website
www.hear.reviews
I was brought up with my father always listening to classical music.

Very well said. A few years back I cited a study by Sony that the human audio memory is about 20 seconds. I never could understand how anyone can remember what an iem sounds like a hundred hours ago. Anyone that has done AB testing will know if you wait longer than a few seconds will have to repeat the AB sequence again to regain the sound image of A. What you believe in Final is accurate and true and consistent with our understanding in current neuroscience.
I recall that statistic, but while that is probably generally true, I can remember particular things that stand out to me when listening to specific pieces of music. For example, if I pick an excellent piano recording, and pick a section where I can clearly hear the harmonics of the notes decaying, I can pick out whether or not different earphones, headphones or other components render that, or it is more "one note" in the decay. That is going to extremes though.

Back to the A8000 though, I was listening to Dire Straights, and I noticed something on one track I hadn't noticed before. That was a surprise, as it was a track I'd listened to a great many times. As I'm cautious of my own impressions, I will assemble tracks where I noticed something significant, then play them back with other headphones or earphones to see if what I perceived was really a one-off or not.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 4)

Top