[120717]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy*Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif More fuel to the fire. Another gross exaggeration most likely.

To pick a higher end model than the SR60 so you don't actually mind a comparison, I prefer my Audio Technica ATH-AD2000 to my HD650, from the headphone out of my T51. There's also the advantage of the battery lasting WAY longer at the same volume. For home equipment that's not an issue I guess..

Also I remember my HD650s sounding lame out of my iPod headphone out, and not so lame from my T51 (NOT an "expensive" source, though lacking some bass compared to my desktop setup).

The thing is that amps/DACs are there to make your headphones sound BETTER, not to make them good.
If you want your first setup, but are CURIOUS about amps, put at most, 35% of your budget towards amping, just to dip your toes in the water of Head-Fi.

For headphones of the same impedance and with the same overall budget: Spending 20% on your amp/DAC but 80% on headphones will likely sound better than 80% on your amp/DAC and 20% on headphones.

Are we done now?

 

[pyramid6]

If you say that running a high-end headphone out of an ipod will sound good, I'll agree with you. If you say that running a high-en headphone out of an ipod will sound as good or better than running it out of a dedicated amp, I'm going to disagree with you.

If you say more expensive headphones sound better than cheaper headphones out of all amps (ipods included) I'm going to disagree with you.

Every amp does current and volts differently, and every headphone handles current and volts differently. If you have a headphone that needs more volts than your amp (ipods have amps) can provide, then it's going to come up short. Same with current.

It makes no sense to think all amps can provide the same level of current and volts at all frequencies across all impedance, and that all headphones need the same amount of current and volts. In fact you can measure that they don't.

Why would you think a headphone will sound the same out of different amps provided they get the same power? As was said, 10V * 100mA is not the same as 1V * 1A.

 

[Crazy*Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyramid6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you say that running a high-end headphone out of an ipod will sound good, I'll agree with you. If you say that running a high-en headphone out of an ipod will sound as good or better than running it out of a dedicated amp, I'm going to disagree with you.

I am saying from my experience, the benefit of an amp is minimal, though there.

 

[wali]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mulveling /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok...that still doesn't address why source voltage output of 3.7, alone, would be limiting in any meaningful way in scope of the HD600. What are you talking about??

The argument is not about 'audibility' but 'fidelity', you should understand the difference if you're really into this hobby.

HD600 with an output of 3.7v will get 46mw @300ohms 1hz. but when its impedance vs. frequency jumps to 600ohms (check the graph) that output is reduced to 23mw!

so, the only way to listen would be to increase the volume really high. that results in increasing the noise floor substantially, which distorts the frequency repose with noise. the headphones sound anemic and fatiguing... that might be good enough for some who don't know what to listen to , but its a waste of a great headphone.

 

[Crazy*Carl]

No its not a waste of a good headphone, I don't doubt they can get better with good amps, but they still sound excellent unamped.

 

[pyramid6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy*Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am saying from my experience, the benefit of an amp is minimal, though there.

That's a little less confrontational way of putting it.

 

[TobaccoRoad]

FWIW, although I can't comment on HD580 since I haven't heard, I couldn't listen to HD650 straight from an ipod. It's not an exaggeration for me I literally hated it, so in this case I have to agree with the poster who liked SR60 better than HD650. afaik HD650 is harder to drive than HD580/600.

Only way to find out is to get a better amp. I mean you posted on EF2 thread that you can barely hear the difference between EF2 and your onboard sound card. What does that tell you? it seems to me you're not happy with your EF2 based on your posts from that thread.

 

[sampson_smith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grokit /img/forum/go_quote.gif Very rarely is someone "done" in this hobby.

True story.

 

[carledwards]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy*Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif No its not a waste of a good headphone, I don't doubt they can get better with good amps, but they still sound excellent unamped.

Subjectivity works like this: one man's "excellent" is another man's "poor."

 

[mulveling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wali /img/forum/go_quote.gif The argument is not about 'audibility' but 'fidelity', you should understand the difference if you're really into this hobby. HD600 with an output of 3.7v will get 46mw @300ohms 1hz. but when its impedance vs. frequency jumps to 600ohms (check the graph) that output is reduced to 23mw! so, the only way to listen would be to increase the volume really high. that results in increasing the noise floor substantially, which distorts the frequency repose with noise. the headphones sound anemic and fatiguing... that might be good enough for some who don't know what to listen to , but its a waste of a great headphone.

I fully understand the difference, I've owned a ton of gear. I appreciate great gear and I fall into the segment of the market that will pay premium dollar for top-notch hifi amplification.

I ALSO believe that there is a viable segment of the market that would be happiest just buying the HD580/600/650 OR just an RS2/RS1 and NOT buying an amp to go with it. Yes, results will vary greatly depending on WHAT is behind that stock headphone jack in question. Some are quite decent enough - that's what I'm referring to. Some are terrible, especially when battery life is a concern. I've heard the HD580 sound excellent right out of a number of older PCDPs - enough to make it a decent price/performance option. I've heard a vintage RS1 sound superb out of an older Sony component CD player, and the HF-1/SR225 out of PCDPs as well. Lots of hifi intergarted amps have a decent enough driver behind their jacks. These headphones don't necessarily need extreme voltage swings to sound WAY better than say a HD497 in my experience.

I'm wary of a lot of these budget $200-$500 amps today. I'm not positive they're worth the money for someone with a GOOD headphone jack available (say from a good stereo integrated or preamp). My own experience with the Total Airhead way back - that was a complete waste of money. Now for example, there was a Headamp Gilmore V2SE recently sell for < $400 here. I know for sure THAT amp will be a REAL step up from any stock jack. But even then, the user will have to be in the segment of the market willing to drop $600+ on headphones - many will be fine with just the "really good cans, unamped" level. For me, yes, that would be $400 well spent. I am in the minority of the greater market.

Quote:

HD600 with an output of 3.7v will get 46mw @300ohms 1hz. but when its impedance vs. frequency jumps to 600ohms (check the graph) that output is reduced to 23mw!

The sensitivity/efficiency spec isn't constant over frequency, either. You can deduce from the impedance curve and the reference frequency response, that the headphone is much more sensitive than average at the frequency of that impedance peak (indeed it corresponds to a resonance). Certainly, you need not turn up the volume in compensation for that. What's important, for reproducing close to the reference response at home, is having a jack with a "low enough" output impedance to keep the output losses reasonably close over all frequencies. I've previously shown that even a high-ish 60 ohms output will get very very close to the reference curve. That is not hard for a jack to achieve.

Also, 3.7V still corresponds to a peak of ~120dB. That's quite a bit MORE than many superb 2ch rigs are capable of (rigs that will beat the crap out of any hifi headphone rig) - so why isn't that enough for headphones?

I'm not saying we should attempt to connect sound quality with numbers/measurements - that is and will always be a losing battle. But if you're going to talk numbers for a specific aspect of sound quality, make sure you at least know HOW to talk numbers with some minimal level of validation and rigor!

 

[MomijiTMO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy*Carl /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am saying from my experience, the benefit of an amp is minimal, though there.

This is where I don't agree. I don't think much of the EF2. If you had a better amp, I'd hold your opinion higher.

No I'm not trying to be an amp snob, I just feel that the EF2 got way too much hype.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomijiTMO /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is where I don't agree. I don't think much of the EF2. If you had a better amp, I'd hold your opinion higher. No I'm not trying to be an amp snob, I just feel that the EF2 got way too much hype.

I think another Head-fi myth comes from people who own cheap amps, especially the LD MKIII, that better amps wont change anything. Like the "you definitely need an amp" crowd, it comes from lack of experience.

 

[Il Mostro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think another Head-fi myth comes from people who own cheap amps, especially the LD MKIII, that better amps wont change anything. Like the "you definitely need an amp" crowd, it comes from lack of experience.

I think this comment is on the money. It extends to DAC's (and other components) as well and has much to do with polarizing opinions here. In absolute terms, most of the gear addressed here is a damn long way from being SOTA. That does not make it any less fun or any less engaging, (heck, I like playing around with this stuff), but it does bring these differences into context. IMO there is no point in talking about inherently compromised gear until it hurts.

 

[Ypoknons]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think another Head-fi myth comes from people who own cheap amps, especially the LD MKIII, that better amps wont change anything. Like the "you definitely need an amp" crowd, it comes from lack of experience.

I was at the shop the other day, tried out a couple of Chinese amps with a H650 and my K701, $400-500USD range, there were definitely differences... I was a little meh with the Compass, liked the SXT2-Lite (single ended output, no balanced cable) and Darkvoice 332, but liked the Kawo Audio HPA-1 quite a bit (very new amp, very little information available and even fewer impressions). I wouldn't quite say minimal, the differences were definitely there and I'd pay for them, but I'd also be happy with the Compass, the cheapest in my test and least liked.

Going to have to hunt down the Elekit and Harmony EAR90 next.

 

[Crazy*Carl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think another Head-fi myth comes from people who own cheap amps, especially the LD MKIII, that better amps wont change anything. Like the "you definitely need an amp" crowd, it comes from lack of experience.

cheap, man I don't consider 200 dollars cheap.