[dudeX]

Very cool.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the Susvara vs Mod House Tunsten DS!

Susvara is very revealing of your equipment capabilties. Right now my current set up seems to introduce a bit of noise since timbre and clarity seems to be affected negatively when compared to the Tungsten DS with UP pads. At CanJam NY testing both headphones on high end amps tells me that the Susvara and Tungsten are just different presentations of high quality sound.

Susvara vs Tungsten on my Bliss - May setup:
Susvara has good subbass extension. This makes a difference for hip hop, heavy rock with a lot of low bass, kick drums, etc. Tungsten rolls of the sub bass with my current pad so it loses some of that energetic bass that makes hip hop bop your head, or that throb from a well placed bass strum. That being said, upgrading pads or cables can bring back some of the bass, or go high end and it will thump.

Mid bass performance: Susvara without a high end amp can sound reference. It is clean bass but without the energy that resonates in your head. Tungsten typically delivers more energetic bass in this area where it adds a bit more weight to the notes. But sometimes without sub bass it just sounds a bit flat. But overall when Susvara doesn’t move you with mid bass the Tungsten can deliver that thump. On balance, in this department, Tungsten has the fun bass you’d expect from a headphone like a Susvara.

Midrange: they both great but the Tungsten adds a bit more weight to vocals so they’re not as thin on the May with no oversampling.

To be continued since Mobile Safari crashed and are my second half of my review

But to conclude: Susvara is still a king headphone because it delivers a cohesive reference sound that can hang with the high end like the He-1 while the Tungsten can challenge Susvara with exciting energy and mid bass, with thicker sound in vocals, imaging, dynamic range. It is easy to tailor the sound with different pads and grills and is better suited than Susvara for media watching.

 

[Leto Dal]

Susvara can very much deliver physical midbass that you feel. There is a lot of weight to the vocals and instruments if you aplify it properly, its rather close to Caldera with much more resolution, stage and airyness on the right amp. Bliss doesnt run Susvara to its full capabilities, unfortunately.
I had one. Its night and day difference from Bliss to something like Envy, where you can throw in proper tube setup to shape the sound further to your liking (more punch, more treble detail and energy with Elrogs or more midrange goodness with something like WE300b or Takatsuki tubes).

 

[BassicScience]

Oh I'm not saying they should lower their price, nor would I expect them to. I was simply arguing that the pricing isn't as simple as R&D and other expenses. We're paying a bit of a premium, and that's my belief for the entire industry having started in this hobby as a teenager. To me, there isn't really a logical way to justify the insane prices we're seeing today across the board.

I personally don't think it does the community any good to defend the higher prices and more people should be critical of them, tbh (obviously if you think they're totally fair, that's a different story).

The "premium" we're paying is Hifiman's profit margin, which every business is entitled to. There are certainly some "insane" prices being asked for some of the gear that's popular here in Summit-Fi, but I personally don't think Susvara falls into that category at a street price of around $4.5k. YMMV, of course. One of my takeaways from CanJam NYC is that Susvara is still king of the planar hill sonically, and the populace seems to agree, given its ubiquity vs. anything else at the show.

From my perspective, it's irrelevant to the community whether one defends or attacks higher prices for gear. The market (supply and demand) ultimately dictates the prevailing cost of gear. I doubt any manufacturer has ever lowered the price of an item because people on a forum were complaining, as long as units were moving at a sufficient clip to sustain profitable production.

Just my perspective, FWIW.

 

[number1sixerfan]

The "premium" we're paying is Hifiman's profit margin, which every business is entitled to. There are certainly some "insane" prices being asked for some of the gear that's popular here in Summit-Fi, but I personally don't think Susvara falls into that category at a street price of around $4.5k. YMMV, of course. One of my takeaways from CanJam NYC is that Susvara is still king of the planar hill sonically, and the populace seems to agree, given its ubiquity vs. anything else at the show.

From my perspective, it's irrelevant to the community whether one defends or attacks higher prices for gear. The market (supply and demand) ultimately dictates the prevailing cost of gear. I doubt any manufacturer has ever lowered the price of an item because people on a forum were complaining, as long as units were moving at a sufficient clip to sustain profitable production.

Just my perspective, FWIW.

Yea I'm very aware that they're entitled to the level of profit margin they seek, but that's a bit besides the point of whether or not we as consumers believe it's reasonable (put purchasing behavior aside here for a sec, as again I've admitted, along with so many others that we're willing to pay it regardless). It's totally subjective and I respect everyone''s opinions. As someone that's owned the Susvara and SGL Sr., I believe and can admit that they're a bit overpriced, but that's totally in my opinion. They still perform amazing and are TOTL gear compared to the competition. Totally get if many others feel differently.

I think people are getting attached to this idea that admitting that something may come at a premium cost means it isn't truly a high performing piece of gear or highly valuable, which is just not a view I hold. In none of my statements have I said it's not an absolute TOTL; and my opinion would also go for the TC and many others.

Where I do disagree more strongly is that the conversation doesn't matter to the hobby or the community, as the discussion can influence people's perspectives and purchasing decisions, which then in turn impacts demand behavior and manufacturer decisions--especially with the emerging trend of higher performing gear at lower costs (some of the offerings from DCA, Raal, Tungsten, etc.). Certainly not saying that these discussions directly drive these companies decision on pricing. Again that doesn't mean it takes away from the Susvara's performance or "dethrones" it.

 

[Polygonhell]

I believe and can admit that they're a bit overpriced

I'll admit they are more than any rational person should pay for a headphone.
But "overpriced" implies that it's priced more highly than people will pay, or perhaps that more profit could be gleaned at a lower price point with an increase in sales.
I'm not sure either are true in this case.

I always tell people who do consulting work, you charge the customer what it's worth to them, not based on what it costs you.
Same's true for retail pricing, if we're basing it on COG alone, almost everything is at least 4x that if you can buy it in a retail store, and that assumes your not trying to recoup R&D money and that actual Manufacturing isn't cost prohibitive.
I do appreciate some companies will price goods at a fixed amount over cost (PS Audio do this), bit it's not typical.

Value is a very personal thing, it took me a LONG time to hit the $3000 on a DAC (I'm at considerably more than that now), but at the same time I'd have dropped $5K on a new computer I didn't need without blinking.

 

[thefitz]

This is the beauty of the aftermarket.

HiFiMAN was historically awful for value retention (kinda like Breitling and IWC), but they do have the Susvara and original HE-6 that have held steady, and in the case of the HE-6, exceeds retail price (kinda like Rolex)!

 

[rwelles]

you charge the customer what it's worth to them, not based on what it costs you.

Welcome to Econ 101! That's the way capitalism is supposed to work.

Actually, capitalism has a lot of problems. It's based on one of the seven deadly sins (greed). Without greed, it all falls apart. The one thing going for capitalism is that it's a lot better than any other system we've tried.

 

[number1sixerfan]

I'll admit they are more than any rational person should pay for a headphone.
But "overpriced" implies that it's priced more highly than people will pay, or perhaps that more profit could be gleaned at a lower price point with an increase in sales.
I'm not sure either are true in this case.

I always tell people who do consulting work, you charge the customer what it's worth to them, not based on what it costs you.
Same's true for retail pricing, if we're basing it on COG alone, almost everything is at least 4x that if you can buy it in a retail store, and that assumes your not trying to recoup R&D money and that actual Manufacturing isn't cost prohibitive.
I do appreciate some companies will price goods at a fixed amount over cost (PS Audio do this), bit it's not typical.

Value is a very personal thing, it took me a LONG time to hit the $3000 on a DAC (I'm at considerably more than that now), but at the same time I'd have dropped $5K on a new computer I didn't need without blinking.

Yup, totally understand the economic part of things and can't fully fault companies pricing gear as they do in the current landscape (although some take greater aim in driving more value for the profit they seek). And again totally admit that the perspective I'm sharing as a hobbyist is completely contradictory to my actions, which actually directly factors into the supply and demand that ultimately sets price.

For me, these are almost two separate conversations. The economics part is common sense and I think most of us understand it. As a hobbyist, I am simply saying that we have *also* given into paying higher premiums, and for me, I simply have no problem talking about it and acknowledging when products I even own come at a high premiums and/or higher than others from my viewpoint. (this will be my last post on this, as for me it's a broader issue w/the hobby rather than something the Susvara is particularly a culprit of)

 

[chrisnyc75]

I don't know how possible it is to get a more efficient Susvara that performs similarly. Something about the gold on the drivers requiring a lot of juice to get going. If you swap out the gold with something easier to drive, it's not the same.

This is my suspicion as well. The only thing I could imagine them improving would be the sensitivity and that MUST come at the cost of performance or they would have done it in the first place. Sort of like when Focal released the Nutopia with a more reliable driver design. It came at a *very slight* cost of performance (subjectively speaking). Once you get to the top of the mountain there's really nowhere else to go.

Value is a very personal thing, it took me a LONG time to hit the $3000 on a DAC (I'm at considerably more than that now), but at the same time I'd have dropped $5K on a new computer I didn't need without blinking.

Same. I spent 2 decades building computers with way more power than I needed, and no matter how much I spent, every single build was obsolete junk a few years later. I remind myself all the time now that the money I'm spending on hifi will never be wasted, my system will outlast me. Better more advanced tech might come along, but great sound will always be great sound nonetheless.

 

[jlbrach]

the marketplace offer numerous different HP's at different prices...the susvara market price makes it competitive with the new entrants in the market and to my ears nothing yet has conclusively bettered it yet...the new RAAL offerings may well do so but at a cost of perhaps 2X......basically all new planars are measured against the 1266 and susvara and nothing has bettered them to my ears....the caldera is a very good HP at a competitive price

 

[dudeX]

Same. I spent 2 decades building computers with way more power than I needed, and no matter how much I spent, every single build was obsolete junk a few years later

I’m skeptical that it’s obsolete junk a few years later. Every high end computer I’ve built holds up for 5-7 years even for games if you replace the GPU.

 

[chrisnyc75]

I’m skeptical that it’s obsolete junk a few years later. Every high end computer I’ve built holds up for 5-7 years even for games if you replace the GPU.

5 or 7 is "a few" years. I fully expect my hifi investment to last DECADES.

 

[psy472]

Find me something better than the Susvara with cheaper price and I may just ditch the Susvara for it. Till then, Susvara is still king of mid fi to high fi audio.

 

[Roasty]

Find me something better than the Susvara with cheaper price and I may just ditch the Susvara for it. Till then, Susvara is still king of mid fi to high fi audio.

unpopular opinion perhaps, but I ditched my susvara for t+a Solitaire-P. sounds great with different flavours using either of the available pads, but I think it's next level after adding on the Oratory eq. it's unfortunate the headband is so narrow and doesn't accommodate well to people with wider headshapes. rrp is high but most definitely can be bought for a much lower price if u know where to look.

 

[jlbrach]

i owned the sol p for a while and liked them but whenever I put on my susvara or 1266 I realized that the sol p...to my ears still didnt measure up...I like the caldera which Zi recently traded for