[VandyMan]

Jim- I get your point and I wish that all headphones were priced based on the criteria you listed. However, we have to add advertising, trade shows, overhead like customer service, offices, accountants, a cut for dealers, etc, and hopefully some profit. These are low volume products and the manufactures are often taking a significant risk by investing in them. I don't think we have a good sense of what the true costs are and I'm not going to tell Hifiman what their profit margin should be. Instead, I propose that we discuss these headphones on their merits, compare them to their competition, and thus arrive at a sense of their fair value. In the end, the market will decide.

 

[Whitigir]

No, here's what I'm saying. Assume for a moment that the $8k price is legitimate based on materials cost, research, etc. (the usual materials cost to final price ratio for high end equipment is traditionally around 5X), the question becomes, what is the additional materials cost that bumps a $8k system up to $50k. It's not at all apparent from what we see IMHO. OTOH, assume the $50k+ cost is legitimate. Then how can they make anything close, i.e. Junior, for a "mere" $8k. The point is that the pricing structure makes no sense, other than as an attempt to price the Shangri-La at the HE-1 level to entice persons who judge sound quality by price.

There wouldn't be anything to warrant any $50k Headphones in my opinions. Sennheiser HE-1 is uniquely on it's own level. Yet, I admire people who has the will to afford it, I wouldn't want to, even if it sounds out of this world good

1/ it had been under development for 20 years or so
2/ it is a very limited productions and nothing is sharing it design, nor being at lower price point
3/ it has a huge giant company with brand and reputations to support it backs
4/ it is uniquely developed by Sennheiser, and there are a lot of uniqueness into it designs, yet...some of it is luxurious and gimmicks, but it is a luxury system after all. The most special thing about the HE1 is it membrane which is lighter than air
5/ it has a special amplifier and nothing share the design
6/ Orpheus 1 was Legendary status

Now, why would sangrila sit at this level ? What can justify it ?

1/ is HFM a luxurious build quality in craftsmanship ?
2/ is HFM reliability beyond 20 years of life for such high-class item like Orpheus ?
3/ is HFM a company into audiophiles with long history that can echoes throughout the industry from recording studio to artists and live performers to home listening...etc...etc... ?
4/ is HFM doing something specially patented to them just for Sangrila and not sharing it with anything else ? What is Sangrila JR ?
5/ is HFM with any Legendary status systems as of at the moment yet ?
6/ is Sangrila a very Limited productions ?

I mean, Stax, they can totally release a very limited production and regardless of price tag. They can totally do SR009 with KG T2 amplifier with hand signatures and booklet of their history....etc...etc...and charge $45k , and it won't matter.

These many questions would warrant what ? I don't know, certainly can not just simply be "sounds good"

In my opinion, I love Stax, and they have a special place in my heart for what they are doing in the while developing a very top tier Headphones without ripping people off. They even allow DIY community to revive the T2

 

[paradoxper]

No, here's what I'm saying. Assume for a moment that the $8k price is legitimate based on materials cost, research, etc. (the usual materials cost to final price ratio for high end equipment is traditionally around 5X), the question becomes, what is the additional materials cost that bumps a $8k system up to $50k. It's not at all apparent from what we see IMHO. OTOH, assume the $50k+ cost is legitimate. Then how can they make anything close, i.e. Junior, for a "mere" $8k. The point is that the pricing structure makes no sense, other than as an attempt to price the Shangri-La at the HE-1 level to entice persons who judge sound quality by price.

Too much logic, Jim. I, for one, will never support this company again. Unfortunately, everyone is jumping on this bandwagon of moar better pricing, so it's a reality that must be accepted in the commercial world.

 

[Whitigir]

Too much logic, Jim. I, for one, will never support this company again. Unfortunately, everyone is jumping on this bandwagon of moar better pricing, so it's a reality that must be accepted in the commercial world.

I don't think you would be interested in anything else than a good DAC for your KG T2 + 009 . Even though it is not a limited production, but it is qualified as a Unicorn hehehe

 

[mulveling]

if it s a system and it sound better than 009 with blue hawaii than 8k is not too much

Firstly that's a big "IF", but also: build quality, reliability, and resale value are very significant factors at this price point. Electrostatics (headphones and amps) are especially difficult to get "right"; new entrants in this market have a lot to prove, and they must prove it over a long period of time.

 

[JimL11]

Jim- I get your point and I wish that all headphones were priced based on the criteria you listed. However, we have to add advertising, trade shows, overhead like customer service, offices, accountants, a cut for dealers, etc, and hopefully some profit. These are low volume products and the manufactures are often taking a significant risk by investing in them. I don't think we have a good sense of what the true costs are and I'm not going to tell Hifiman what their profit margin should be. Instead, I propose that we discuss these headphones on their merits, compare them to their competition, and thus arrive at a sense of their fair value. In the end, the market will decide.

Yes, but all of those factors (advertising, trade shows, overhead, middlemen profits, etc) are factored into that usual 5x rule - as one of my college room-mates used to joke, value added by advertising.. And I am sure there are some exceptions. For low volume products there is a higher per unit cost for parts, but also these tend to be more expensive products so profit for unit is also higher. Based on my experience as a DIYer and the cost for electronic parts, my guess is that for the BHSE that multiplier is less than 5X, but for the HFM my guess it is much more than 5X. Just my guess. Obviously I don't like it, and my choice as a consumer is not to buy it.

 

[VandyMan]

Yes, but all of those factors (advertising, trade shows, overhead, middlemen profits, etc) are factored into that usual 5x rule - as one of my college room-mates used to joke, value added by advertising.. And I am sure there are some exceptions. For low volume products there is a higher per unit cost for parts, but also these tend to be more expensive products so profit for unit is also higher. Based on my experience as a DIYer and the cost for electronic parts, my guess is that for the BHSE that multiplier is less than 5X, but for the HFM my guess it is much more than 5X. Just my guess. Obviously I don't like it, and my choice as a consumer is not to buy it.

I have no idea if your guesses are accurate, but let's not tar a company based on guesses. Totally agree with you last sentence. Personally, I'd rather read more about these headphones than read attacks on the manufacture for some past offense. For example, I look forward to more of your technical posts about the amp, once more details are available.

 

[Whitigir]

BHSE is about less than 3X factor , the same for KG T2. If they were to be 5X....everyone would cry, hence why manufacturers don't want to make them LOL

 

[purk]

If so, I stand corrected. However, as much as I don't like the upward trend in the market, I think Hifiman is being unfairly singled out. They are part of the trend, but they were not first and are not alone. And 8K for a full electrostatic system while very expensive is not out of line with the rest of the market. To me, the interesting questions are how it sounds and how it compares to competitors in sound and value.

I have no idea if your guesses are accurate, but let's not tar a company based on guesses. Totally agree with you last sentence. Personally, I'd rather read more about these headphones than read attacks on the manufacture for some past offense. For example, I look forward to more of your technical posts about the amp, once more details are available.

Well, can u imagine what those Susvara adopters feel like now after reading about this Shangrila Jr. released? I was burned on the HEK V1...so never again. For real though, how many flagships can u released in two years? Four according to Hifiman.

 

[FastAndClean]

Well, can u imagine what those Susvara adopters feel like now after reading about this Shangrila Jr. released? I was burned on the HEK V1...so never again. For real though, how many flagships can u released in two years? Four according to Hifiman.

Because it sound good

 

[raypin]

Mm...yes, HFM has a perception problem. Maybe in due time, that perception problem will change. But, on the plus side, it is trying very hard to prove that its products can compete with the world's best. It may not have the solid reputation of Sennheiser but we have to be remember that it is still a young company.

However, I would be royally, ape-crap pissed off if Sennheiser decided to make an HE 1 Jr.

There wouldn't be anything to warrant any $50k Headphones in my opinions. Sennheiser HE-1 is uniquely on it's own level. Yet, I admire people who has the will to afford it, I wouldn't want to, even if it sounds out of this world good

1/ it had been under development for 20 years or so
2/ it is a very limited productions and nothing is sharing it design, nor being at lower price point
3/ it has a huge giant company with brand and reputations to support it backs
4/ it is uniquely developed by Sennheiser, and there are a lot of uniqueness into it designs, yet...some of it is luxurious and gimmicks, but it is a luxury system after all. The most special thing about the HE1 is it membrane which is lighter than air
5/ it has a special amplifier and nothing share the design
6/ Orpheus 1 was Legendary status

Now, why would sangrila sit at this level ? What can justify it ?

1/ is HFM a luxurious build quality in craftsmanship ?
2/ is HFM reliability beyond 20 years of life for such high-class item like Orpheus ?
3/ is HFM a company into audiophiles with long history that can echoes throughout the industry from recording studio to artists and live performers to home listening...etc...etc... ?
4/ is HFM doing something specially patented to them just for Sangrila and not sharing it with anything else ? What is Sangrila JR ?
5/ is HFM with any Legendary status systems as of at the moment yet ?
6/ is Sangrila a very Limited productions ?

I mean, Stax, they can totally release a very limited production and regardless of price tag. They can totally do SR009 with KG T2 amplifier with hand signatures and booklet of their history....etc...etc...and charge $45k , and it won't matter.

These many questions would warrant what ? I don't know, certainly can not just simply be "sounds good"

In my opinion, I love Stax, and they have a special place in my heart for what they are doing in the while developing a very top tier Headphones without ripping people off. They even allow DIY community to revive the T2

 

[Whitigir]

Never mind, I am out of words

 

[mulder01]

Well, can u imagine what those Susvara adopters feel like now after reading about this Shangrila Jr. released? I was burned on the HEK V1...so never again. For real though, how many flagships can u released in two years? Four according to Hifiman.

I reckon there's enough time left for a 5th flagship in that 2 year space.

People will keep buying them though - I'm surprised folks are still forking out thousands each time A&K release a new flagship DAP pretty much every time the wind changes direction. Resale value must be terrible too, yet people keep going back for more.

 

[raypin]

ot: Mm..A&K has a slower release cycle for the TOTL/flagship DAP. The SP 1000 was released two years after the launch of the previous flagship, the AK 380/cu.

As for resale value, depreciation is across the board, from the value model to the TOTL, be it DAPs or headphones.

As an A&K owner, I can confidently say that they perform as advertised and are solidly built. My AK 240, bought 3 years ago, still performs flawlessly. Zero quality issues. Same with my AK 380 cu. What I am saying is you truly get your money's worth.

 

[Ali-Pacha]

if it s a system and it sound better than 009 with blue hawaii than 8k is not too much

As I wrote it elsewhere, I had the opportunity to have a pretty good listening session to a Shangri-La system in a french headphones event.
Luckily, this event was quiet, and there was also a Sennheiser booth with HE1 as well as an official Stax booth, which lacked only 009 and T8000.
For the record, I brought my Lambda Sig to compare to the current Lambda line...and to compare to other stats as well.

Long story short :
- HE1 were very good, even if not mind-blowing to the BHSE+009 owner. Natural details, darker and more relaxed, wider but less deep soundstage, bass not as impactful but very symphonic / atmospheric, slower all around but maybe more "right" in that extent. I still prefer @n3rdling HE90's clones for this kind of presentation but I have to compare side to side
- Shangri-La were very deceiving : bathtub frequency response, bloated and too present bass, nothing interesting in the mids, very cymbaling / dzinging highs, maybe the worst highs I've ever encountered on estat (at least not screechy), poor impact, so-so soundstage
- obviously my Lambda Signature as well as L700 and 007mk2, all of them plugged on Stax's best current workhorse (353X) were way better to my ears than Shangri-La. Not fond of L300/L500 sound, there's still some harshness of the previous x0x Lambda line
- Shangri La amp is dedicated to their phones. Lambda plugged on it = a big "nope"
- Susvara did please me, reminded me some of the tactile feeling of HE6. So better than Shangri-La to my ears
- HE1000 V2 from a very strong amp (Viva Egoista 845) did also please me, in another style, more easy-going / relaxed. Better than Shangri La to my ears.

So I highly doubt Shangri La Jr. would compete with BHSE+009 to my ears, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt

Ali