[Austin Morrow]

As long as it sounds good to you, who cares what other people say! "I listen to my music, not my gear"

 

[Daysleeper]

 
Quote:

As long as it sounds good to you, who cares what other people say! "I listen to my music, not my gear"

Amen brother.

 

[Nukeshock]

well i can !hear and pick out an un tuned instrument in my school band ... so i think my impresion counts right ? ok i just got my reshelled tf10 by g-customs singapore and just went to jaben singapore with my sd card full of flac songs in 1411kbps rate , after a long audition with the hm-801 the ipad 2 ( not mine my cousins set ) my walkman nwz-s754 ( walkman could only read wav so it was in all wav format in 1411kbps too) and i got to say with all of them amped by my govibe martini the hifiman still hit the top but sad to say with the walkman very close behind and the ipad just a few feet from them both ( the walkman has a warm sig so i tuned the eq to have more treble to bass to make it more neutral)... so now i am quite lost for words cuz i got to say i had wet dream about the hm-801 ( lol like finding it left on the train !!!) but the ipad really made it come back when the fostex hp-p1 portable dac /amp was introduced to the mix !!! it beat the hm-801 and pwn my walkman !!! ( the dac did not work on the walkman or the hm-801 though so maybe you could count that as an unfair advantage ? ) i dont really undertsand those graphs but from the look of them they seem to be either lying or exagerating the truth cuz one say th hifi man is better then the othe says the ipods better wth !?!?!?! which is better lah !!! so to end this i think a ipod classic 120 gb paired with the hp-p1 portable dac that bypasses the internal dac of the ipod like the cypher labs algorythym solo) and add your amp of choice ( i pref the C&c amp) would be a terrific set up ( but beware it your bringing it to a airport cuz security might stop you when you try to pass lol !!!!!

 

[MikePio]

Quote:

So go back to your iPod earbuds then because I prefer products that perform higher in their specs.
 

 
At the end of the day listening to music is a sensual experience not a technical one... I pick my gear based on what I hear not what technical graphs display. Though the Ipod earbuds are just horrid in every possible way, sensual or technical 

. In this case (Iphone vs HM801) the specifications represent the actual sound, based on your opinion and results, but this is not always the case... 
 
 

 

[MayaTlab]

Again, although these graphs are undeniably valid (yes, there is for example a treble roll off with the HM 801), they're absolutely incomplete. If only a few parameters could determine the sound quality of a DAC / amp, head-fi wouldn't need to exist. There are many, many, many more parameters that determine sound quality and we most likely ignore more than half of them.
 
The OP does not think the HM 801 provides added sound quality than the iPod, and it is a perfectly fine opinion. On the other hand, saying that the HM 801 is a $800 piece of junk is an exxagaration (and goes against the opinion of many experienced members here), and basing this opinion on a bunch of only partially relevant graphs just isn't right. As I said it is likely taking other parameters into account, the HM 801 might perform better than the iPod on some of them (and worse on others).
 
My personnal experience is with portable headphones of the DT 1350, HD-25 or ESW10 type, and with these I've noticed an improvement by going from the iPhone to the HM 601 to the HM 801. But I am in no position to know the influence of the amp section (I do not own an external amp), and as IEMs are less power hungry, it is likely only the DAC section really matters here. We also said the output impedance of the Hifiman devices is very high, which certainly is a bad move on Hifiman's part and can mess up the FR of multi BA IEMs. On the oter hand it probably does not have such an impact on regular portable headphones.

 

[b0wl1ng]

I have the 3rd gen touch and it is excellent, I use it amped to listen to high bitrate radio, very neutral and impressive, if a person such as the OP has both and made comparisons he has a justifiable opinion and a valid right to air his dissapoinment.
I do feel that the 801 is way overpriced considering interface, battery and size issues and if it sounds worse than the ipod touch it will soon be consigned to oblivion.
 

 

[.Sup]

Quote:

The common response when someone ignores the measured facts to justify their overpriced product. I've never once been impressed with anything HiFi Man has built. The IEMs are poorly designed in many ways and I'll never buy another.

I'm not justifying or ignoring anything. I have a HM-602 that I can sell if I don't like. But I have 2 ipods and both are very poor performing in terms of musicality and music enjoyment. Possibly their specs are better but my brain can't really measure that, it can only measure fun, enjoyable sounds that come from a certain player. No need to jump on me like that again you two, was just stating my experience. Btw the 602 +RE262 that I got with is much cheaper than a 16GB Touch. So pretty underpriced if compared with the Touch.

 

[Tronz]

Quote:

I'm not justifying or ignoring anything. I have a HM-602 that I can sell if I don't like. But I have 2 ipods and both are very poor performing in terms of musicality and music enjoyment. Possibly their specs are better but my brain can't really measure that, it can only measure fun, enjoyable sounds that come from a certain player. No need to jump on me like that again you two, was just stating my experience. Btw the 602 +RE262 that I got with is much cheaper than a 16GB Touch. So pretty underpriced if compared with the Touch.

You've seem to forgetten that the 602 just plays music and that's it, while the iPod Touch is a miniature all in one device. The 602 isn't under priced at all and is probably overpriced just like the 801.
 

 

[Tronz]

Quote:

Again, although these graphs are undeniably valid (yes, there is for example a treble roll off with the HM 801), they're absolutely incomplete. If only a few parameters could determine the sound quality of a DAC / amp, head-fi wouldn't need to exist. There are many, many, many more parameters that determine sound quality and we most likely ignore more than half of them.
 
The OP does not think the HM 801 provides added sound quality than the iPod, and it is a perfectly fine opinion. On the other hand, saying that the HM 801 is a $800 piece of junk is an exxagaration (and goes against the opinion of many experienced members here), and basing this opinion on a bunch of only partially relevant graphs just isn't right. As I said it is likely taking other parameters into account, the HM 801 might perform better than the iPod on some of them (and worse on others).
 
My personnal experience is with portable headphones of the DT 1350, HD-25 or ESW10 type, and with these I've noticed an improvement by going from the iPhone to the HM 601 to the HM 801. But I am in no position to know the influence of the amp section (I do not own an external amp), and as IEMs are less power hungry, it is likely only the DAC section really matters here. We also said the output impedance of the Hifiman devices is very high, which certainly is a bad move on Hifiman's part and can mess up the FR of multi BA IEMs. On the oter hand it probably does not have such an impact on regular portable headphones.

Why do you say that as if their opinion holds any more value than any normal user on this forum? I hope you don't think that.

 

[Tronz]

Quote:

As long as it sounds good to you, who cares what other people say! "I listen to my music, not my gear"

I completely agree with this, but it's hard to do that when you've got something like HM-801 imposing it's rolled off treble and distracting me from enjoying the music. I want my gear to be as transparent as possible so I can therefore listen to the music and not distortion.

 

[MayaTlab]

Quote:

Why do you say that as if their opinion holds any more value than any normal user on this forum? I hope you don't think that.

 

I yes, I do think that it MIGHT be more valuable. Elitist ? Certainly. But I surely consider my opinion to be of inferior value than the one of other members. 
 
Anyway, I just like people to be moderate in their judgements. That's why I do not object to you saying that you think the HM 801 isn't as good sounding as the iPod (although this is most certainly going against the trend). I do object however on you saying that this is a piece of junk, mostly based on measurements that, despite being useful, shouldn't be overinterpreted. But I also object on people claiming the HM 801 to be the be-all transcendental solution for the discerning audiophile. There's a middle ground somewhere.
 
Example : when the HM 801 came out, I read things such as it could compete with + $1000 desktop DACs. Most experienced members had a more moderate approach, saying it was very competitve against mid-level DACs, but still short of the higher-end DAC level - something most likely closer to the truth.
 
Quote:

I completely agree with this, but it's hard to do that when you've got something like HM-801 imposing it's rolled off treble and distracting me from enjoying the music. I want my gear to be as transparent as possible so I can therefore listen to the music and not distortion.

ANY piece of audio equipement has some form of distortion. Your iPod certainly isn't any more Hifi overall than the HM 801. It might have a more correct frequency response, but I'd bet a zillion quid it would loose on other unreported measurements. Again, if frequency response was the only interesting thing to measure to determine if something is higher fidelity than something else, head-fi would have no reason to exist. 
 

 

[shrimants]

itouch 2g and higher and iphone 2nd gen and higher both have absurdly good sound quality. They use really high quality components. The original iphone was using a crappy chip (either dac or opamp, i dont remember which) and the ipod video had horrible bass roll off. thats what i've gathered from my time on the forums, anyways. I've never seen or heard the hifiman players so i cant comment on those.

 

[Bojamijams]

You say you want your gear to be as transparent as possible but I guarantee you that the iPod does NOT fit in that description by any established HiFi reviewer.  Most won't even look at the device and will laugh you off if you bring it up as a 'transparent source'.  People these days don't want transparent.  This is why the ESS9018, despite its VERY impressive specs (which you would love to post pictures of trust me, they're VERY impressive numbers. You like numbers) is not a very popular DAC for everyone as its too transparent and analytical and people want musical, not analytical. Most do anyway. Certainly the crowd that buys iPods which for the most part is still teens to 20 somethings, that listen with included iBuds or skull candies, they listen to pop and hip-hop and all they want is MOAR BASS! I'm not saying this is you, I'm saying this is the majority of the iPod market and thats who the player is tuned for.
 
So in conclusion, lot of people here say they want as transparent as possible, but if you actually listen to it with modern music (ie. digitally compressed, tuned for bass explosion, etc.) it sounds harsh and cold.  However if you load some classical 24bit 96khz recordings, you get eargasms.  But thats not everyone's choice.
 
Or think of yet another way: 
 
Pop, hip-hop, reggae, trance, dance, house, modern rock, alternative rock, metal, goth, electronic = you don't want transparent or hifi.  Lowfi will make this sound best.
 
Classical, Blues, Jazz, some very select metal albums, or anything that uses acoustic instruments and features no digital compression during mastering = you want as hifi as possible ,especially since this kind of stuff is actually available in 24bit 96khz.  In the portable realm, 801 is king for these styles. 
 

 
Quote:

I completely agree with this, but it's hard to do that when you've got something like HM-801 imposing it's rolled off treble and distracting me from enjoying the music. I want my gear to be as transparent as possible so I can therefore listen to the music and not distortion.

 

 

[Satellite_6]

Quote:

You say you want your gear to be as transparent as possible but I guarantee you that the iPod does NOT fit in that description by any established HiFi reviewer.  Most won't even look at the device and will laugh you off if you bring it up as a 'transparent source'.  People these days don't want transparent.  This is why the ESS9018, despite its VERY impressive specs (which you would love to post pictures of trust me, they're VERY impressive numbers. You like numbers) is not a very popular DAC for everyone as its too transparent and analytical and people want musical, not analytical. Most do anyway. Certainly the crowd that buys iPods which for the most part is still teens to 20 somethings, that listen with included iBuds or skull candies, they listen to pop and hip-hop and all they want is MOAR BASS! I'm not saying this is you, I'm saying this is the majority of the iPod market and thats who the player is tuned for.
 
So in conclusion, lot of people here say they want as transparent as possible, but if you actually listen to it with modern music (ie. digitally compressed, tuned for bass explosion, etc.) it sounds harsh and cold.  However if you load some classical 24bit 96khz recordings, you get eargasms.  But thats not everyone's choice.
 
Or think of yet another way: 
 
Pop, hip-hop, reggae, trance, dance, house, modern rock, alternative rock, metal, goth, electronic = you don't want transparent or hifi.  Lowfi will make this sound best.
 
Classical, Blues, Jazz, some very select metal albums, or anything that uses acoustic instruments and features no digital compression during mastering = you want as hifi as possible ,especially since this kind of stuff is actually available in 24bit 96khz.  In the portable realm, 801 is king for these styles. 
 

 


 

Now there's a reasonable argument, why didn't you start out with that.
 
FWIR ipods actually sound really good nowadays, but I've never liked them in the past. . . 
 

 

[.Sup]

Quote:

You've seem to forgetten that the 602 just plays music and that's it, while the iPod Touch is a miniature all in one device. The 602 isn't under priced at all and is probably overpriced just like the 801.
 

You should just sell yours, its obvious you hate it. It just isn't your cup of tea, I don't see why any further discussion is needed.