[FredrikT92]

I refer to that soundstage effect as "out & away" myself, but "distant" is also a very good descriptor. That kind of soundstage really grinds my gears on almost every type of music—borderline hate it, in fact. I never liked it on the HD800, didn't like it on the SR-009, and still don't like it on the HE1K. The only genre of music I actually like that sort of soundstage with is ambient electronica, as it benefits hugely from the effect. The HE1K does play my ambient electronica CDs extremely well—it's practically right up there with the Qualia 010, as far as I can remember anyway. On everything else it's just not that engaging to listen to. Trying to listen to any kind of vocal music has become especially frustrating.

---

And on another note, I finally got around to modding the HE1K headband to achieve a better fit. It's still not quite high enough though and needs just a teeny bit more padding, but it's much better now. For anyone who might remember my sponge mod for the Qualia, I now present my non-destructive, completely-reversible sponge-cloth mod for the HE1K! Laugh if you want, I don't care, I'm just glad the HE1K is finally somewhat wear-able for me!

(click for a larger size)

Completely opposite opinion, though I came to Head Fi from fairly high end speaker system (Soundlab 845, Krell), so expansive soundstage is essential to enjoying music. Though I listen to mostly jazz, classical, classic and acoustic rock (very little EDM, Rap, etc.).[/quote]

 
Its fine when you have 2 speakers in front of you, but when you have 2 "speakers" around ur ear, that distant sound makes it sound like something else then speakers, in my opinion, cause its too distant. Maybe if they angeled the driver towards in the ear like Audeze, it would have been better. Cause to me HE-1000 just sound like there's alot of sound everywhere and pretty far away. Sry if that made no sens. As someone have mentioned, headphone makes shouldent really try to make speaker-stage for headphones. 

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Wildcat... you may want to edit your post to make clear what's quote and what's your opinion (which I largely share).

Sorry, on my iPhone, will revisit when I get to my MacBook later today, thanks Jazz.

 

[JaZZ]

  Its fine when you have 2 speakers in front of you, but when you have 2 "speakers" around ur ear, that distant sound makes it sound like something else then speakers, in my opinion, cause its too distant. Maybe if they angeled the driver towards in the ear like Audeze, it would have been better. Cause to me HE-1000 just sound like there's alot of sound everywhere and pretty far away. Sry if that made no sens. As someone have mentioned, headphone makes shouldent really try to make speaker-stage for headphones. 

 
I fully accept your preference, which is a possible approach. But why have headphones to sound like headphones? I for ohne prefer them to sound as lifelike and realistic as possible and as little technical or technically limited as possible. An orchestra or a singer right in front of my ears is not what I want. If it is somehow speaker-like, that's an approach to a lifelike reproduction after all. Let's say there are the following possible methods of listening to music, in decreasing order of spatial realism: live concert > multi-channel speaker system (with realistic recordings) > stereo speaker system > near-field monitors > extremely open headphones (à la AKG K 1000) > open circumaural headphones with angled drivers > open c.a. headphones > closed c.a. headphones > open on-ear headphones > closed on-ear headphones > in-ear monitors. You may pick your poison according to your preference for ear-/headphone-like intimacy or speaker-like realism. There's nothing wrong with the latter, also and even in terms of accuracy and high fidelity, if it isn't bought with acoustic tricks on the basis of inaccuracies. It may even be an indication of high accuracy.

 

[money4me247]

  Much of head-fi is dedicated to people talking about "MORE."   More bass, more treble, more detail, huge soundstage.   This type of talk is unfortunately meaningless to me.  More is not always better.  What we want or should want from our equipment is a convincing and emotionally involving experience.  Headphones are not meant to deliver a large soundstage. Speakers are.   Headphones are meant to deliver an intimate musical experience.  When headphone manufacturers try to stretch that soundstage beyond what it was meant to be it results in damaging the sonic purity and the overall listening experience. Same with hyper detail.  It sounds good at fist- but we soon realize it is not convincing and we loose interest in our equipment.  Do we really want "more" of everything or do we just want a more convincing musical experience which results in more pleasure?
 
Forgive me for being so upfront- but for any of you whom are tired of chasing around new headphones all the time with promisses of "more"- which I myself am tired of-- get yourselves a LCD-3f.  It may not be "the best" in every measurable sonic category in technical terms.  In fact I am sure it is not.-   But you will have musical pleasure and a convincing musical delivery to your ears for a long long time (if the drivers don't break) with no fatigue.  You may have more "pleasure" than any other headphone out there.  And pleasure is the "more" that counts.   Game over..

...no fatigue until you wear the lcd-3 for more than 20 minutes =P. audeze headphones are ridiculously heavy.

 

[up late]

good point tho

 

[securitybunny]

Just received my HE1000 today and ordered a Silver Dragon cable for it. Are there any other modifications / upgrades that could be made to these headphones? I'm upgrading from an HD800 so I would say my biggest complaint would be the headband being too short and the earpads getting hot / feel itchy.

 

[Asr]

As for ASR, I believe he used good amplification so I can only suppose he's not a headphone guy after all.

 
Within the context of the recent discussion on soundstage, some headphones have a distant-sounding soundstage and others don't, and I happen to prefer the ones that don't, and then you go and posit that I'm not a "headphone guy after all"? What is that supposed to mean? I used to own the Stax OII MKI, as you know, and I really liked the sound of that headphone (and I didn't sell it because I stopped liking its sound, I sold it for other reasons). So I don't understand your comment, particularly when there are plenty of other headphones that I've really liked as well, just not ones like the HD800, SR-009, or now the HE1K. If you meant to say that I'm not into headphones that have a distant-sounding soundstage that would be accurate, but to say I'm not a "headphone guy" is simply inaccurate.
 
And while we're on the subject of soundstage, headstage, etc, particularly in the context of flagship headphones, that reminds me of darth nut's excellent 2003 review of the OII MKI: http://www.head-fi.org/t/40313/stax-sr-007-omega-ii-a-review-after-4-years-of-ownership
 

Completely opposite opinion, though I came to Head Fi from fairly high end speaker system (Soundlab 845, Krell), so expansive soundstage is essential to enjoying music. Though I listen to mostly jazz, classical, classic and acoustic rock (very little EDM, Rap, etc.).

 
I can understand your perspective, but I also listen to classical a fair amount and don't like expansive soundstages with it, at all. I'm sure that's probably intended to provide the illusion of a concert hall, but for me when a headphone expands the soundstage and I'm listening to classical music, I lose my connection to the music. I want to feel like I'm as close to the orchestra as possible, not away from it.
 

I fully accept your preference, which is a possible approach. But why have headphones to sound like headphones? I for ohne prefer them to sound as lifelike and realistic as possible and as little technical or technically limited as possible. An orchestra or a singer right in front of my ears is not what I want. If it is somehow speaker-like, that's an approach to a lifelike reproduction after all. Let's say there are the following possible methods of listening to music, in decreasing order of spatial realism: live concert > multi-channel speaker system (with realistic recordings) > stereo speaker system > near-field monitors > extremely open headphones (à la AKG K 1000) > open circumaural headphones with angled drivers > open c.a. headphones > closed c.a. headphones > open on-ear headphones > closed on-ear headphones > in-ear monitors. You may pick your poison according to your preference for ear-/headphone-like intimacy or speaker-like realism. There's nothing wrong with the latter, also and even in terms of accuracy and high fidelity, if it isn't bought with acoustic tricks on the basis of inaccuracies. It may even be an indication of high accuracy.

 
And it's now clear to me that there are at least two different perspectives on this when it comes to classical music and soundstage. Clearly you and Wildcatsare1 have the same perspective on needing that expanded soundstage for classical music to sound life-like.
 
But I'd challenge both of you on this perspective, because that's just not the whole picture of getting life-like-sounding classical music. True, classical music is usually performed in some type of concert hall or auditorium otherwise, and I definitely understand that some people seek to replicate that "soundstage" at home, whether it's on loudspeakers or headphones.
 
But as a musician myself (violinist, specifically), to equate "speaker-like" to "life-like" isn't the whole picture. What about the aspect of tonality? Don't you care if the strings sound fake or glossy? Or if the brass sounds shrill or too bronzy? Or the woodwinds nasal? Or that the percussion delivers ground-shaking impact? Or that loud fortissimos hit you in the chest from their intensity? Life-like includes that too, it's not only the soundstage.
 
For me, an orchestra in front of me is exactly what I want. Ideally I'd like to feel like I'm in the conductor's position, and not in the audience. The Stax OII MKI delivered exactly that for me when I owned it, which is just one reason why I liked it so much. It consistently made me feel like I was either directly in front of the orchestra, or even in it, and that was just one factor that contributed to it sounding life-like & realistic to me, as a violinist. I've played in orchestras before and know just how intense everything around me can sound; and if I can get that experience from headphones, then that's something I want!
 
That's just my take on this subject of classical music & soundstage, anyway, because this difference of opinion on Head-Fi isn't usually clearly seen & understood enough by those who listen to classical music. We're all fans of classical music, but it's obvious not all of us are really listening to the same thing.

 

[miceblue]

I want to feel like I'm as close to the orchestra as possible, not away from it.

Asr being Asr. : p

I've read some of your longer reviews over the years I've been on Head-Fi. I know a lot of people don't agree with what you write, but you often take the time to explain why you rate headphones the way you do, which I really appreciate.

You should come up to another Bottlehead meet some time! : D

For those that don't know, Asr has been involved in the Head-Fi community for a long time; attending most of the larger meets and organising many events throughout the years. Saying "he's not a headphone guy after all" is rather head-scratching.





Anyway, I also prefer being close to the orchestra, or any recording for that matter, rather than being far away from it. However, I also like to keep in mind the recording situation. More often than not, stereo recording microphones are angled towards the source of the sound, not away from them. One of my favourite albums, "Quiet Winter Night" has liner notes to describe the recording setup.
http://www.2l.no/pages/album/087.html

From the liner notes:

2L (Lindberg Lyd) records in spacious acoustic venues; large concert halls, churches and cathedrals. This is actually where we can make the most intimate recordings. The qualities we seek in large rooms are not necessarily a big reverb, but openness due to the absence of close reflecting walls. Making an ambient and beautiful recording is the way of least resistance. Searching the fine edge between direct contact and openness; that’s the real challenge! A really good recording should be able to bodily move the listener. This core quality of audio production is made by choosing the right venue for the repertoire, and balancing the image in the placement of microphones and musicians relative to each other in that venue. There is no method available today to reproduce the exact perception of attending a live performance. That leaves us with the art of illusion when it comes to recording music. As recording engineers and producers we need to do exactly the same as any good musician; interpret the music and the composer’s intentions and adapt to the media where we perform.

And from their Facebook Page, you can see that all of the microphones are pointed directly at the musicians. In this case, the surround sound version of the album is probably the most optimal for accuracy of the recording, but I'm guessing the mastering engineer likely attempted to recreate that effect in the stereo version too.

With the HE1000, the recording sounded too spacious to me and imaging too distant, which took away from the beauty of the recordings to me compared to the SRS-2170.

Evidently a lot of people like big soundstages though, and I mentioned in my HE1000 review that it might sound good for just listening to music. Like you, I've never really liked the HD800 all that much, and the SR-009 has been a bit underwhelming to me every time I've listened to it.





In a different album, "Explorations in Space and Time," the audio was recorded with a binaural dummy head. This time the "microphones" weren't pointed at a particular musician, and the "microphones" would thus pick up sounds from around the setup (as a binaural recording should). Looking at the photos of the recording setup, the musicians actually aren't that far away from the dummy head. The HE1000 made those musicians seem farther away than what I would expect and that, again, kind of took away from the beauty of the recording to me.





That "far away" effect was also heard in my own binaural recordings, and I also mentioned that in my review.

 

[wink]

Quote:Asr

 But as a musician myself (violinist, specifically), to equate "speaker-like" to "life-like" isn't the whole picture. What about the aspect of tonality? Don't you care if the strings sound fake or glossy? Or if the brass sounds shrill or too bronzy? Or the woodwinds nasal? Or that the percussion delivers ground-shaking impact? Or that loud fortissimos hit you in the chest from their intensity? Life-like includes that too, it's not only the soundstage.  
For me, an orchestra in front of me is exactly what I want. Ideally I'd like to feel like I'm in the conductor's position, and not in the audience. The Stax OII MKI delivered exactly that for me when I owned it, which is just one reason why I liked it so much. It consistently made me feel like I was either directly in front of the orchestra, or even in it, and that was just one factor that contributed to it sounding life-like & realistic to me, as a violinist. I've played in orchestras before and know just how intense everything around me can sound; and if I can get that experience from headphones, then that's something I want!

 
I really appreciate your point of view, Asr.
But for me. as a listener and not a musician, my perspective must necessarily differ.
 
I have listened to a few 5 piece jazz bands, stood behind people playing a piano, sat in front of numerous groups of musicians jamming, a few concert recitals, etc.
So, necessarily my view must differ, even though I have been in a choir, so I can appreciate the difference between being in a group and being a spectator.
 
The fact that quite a few recordings are miked within a band/orchestra gives an unrealistic sonic rendition of a performance.  The sonic presentation varies all through the band/orchestra.
 
Having said that these recordings are trying to give a comprehensive sonic representation which may/may not be what the conductor hears.
 
So, we are left to the mercy of the audio engineers/mixers and their rendition of the performance.

 

[arnaud]

   
Within the context of the recent discussion on soundstage, some headphones have a distant-sounding soundstage and others don't, and I happen to prefer the ones that don't, and then you go and posit that I'm not a "headphone guy after all"? What is that supposed to mean? I used to own the Stax OII MKI, as you know, and I really liked the sound of that headphone (and I didn't sell it because I stopped liking its sound, I sold it for other reasons). So I don't understand your comment, particularly when there are plenty of other headphones that I've really liked as well, just not ones like the HD800, SR-009, or now the HE1K. If you meant to say that I'm not into headphones that have a distant-sounding soundstage that would be accurate, but to say I'm not a "headphone guy" is simply inaccurate.
 
And while we're on the subject of soundstage, headstage, etc, particularly in the context of flagship headphones, that reminds me of darth nut's excellent 2003 review of the OII MKI: http://www.head-fi.org/t/40313/stax-sr-007-omega-ii-a-review-after-4-years-of-ownership

 
Yes, this piece of art from darth nut is well worth the read, I knew about it for a long time thank you .
 
Sorry if I irked you a bit with my comment, I just can't relate well to your critic of the SR009 headstage as compare to the SR007mk1 (I own both). The Omega 2 is more intimate but also more closed in relatively speaking, maybe this is what you are referring too / are after.
 
In regards to placement and layering / instrument separation, there is no question to me the SR009 feels superior to the Omega 2, although differences between the 2 phones are lessened by the use of BHSE amp (was much more obvious with the stock SRM727).
 
Anyhow, we probably don't listen to the same kind of music, nor do we have the same conception of proper headstage, that is fine .
 
cheers,
arnaud

 

[JaZZ]

  Within the context of the recent discussion on soundstage, some headphones have a distant-sounding soundstage and others don't, and I happen to prefer the ones that don't, and then you go and posit that I'm not a "headphone guy after all"? What is that supposed to mean? I used to own the Stax OII MKI, as you know, and I really liked the sound of that headphone (and I didn't sell it because I stopped liking its sound, I sold it for other reasons). So I don't understand your comment, particularly when there are plenty of other headphones that I've really liked as well, just not ones like the HD800, SR-009, or now the HE1K. If you meant to say that I'm not into headphones that have a distant-sounding soundstage that would be accurate, but to say I'm not a "headphone guy" is simply inaccurate.
 
And while we're on the subject of soundstage, headstage, etc, particularly in the context of flagship headphones, that reminds me of darth nut's excellent 2003 review of the OII MKI: http://www.head-fi.org/t/40313/stax-sr-007-omega-ii-a-review-after-4-years-of-ownership
 
I can understand your perspective, but I also listen to classical a fair amount and don't like expansive soundstages with it, at all. I'm sure that's probably intended to provide the illusion of a concert hall, but for me when a headphone expands the soundstage and I'm listening to classical music, I lose my connection to the music. I want to feel like I'm as close to the orchestra as possible, not away from it.
 
And it's now clear to me that there are at least two different perspectives on this when it comes to classical music and soundstage. Clearly you and Wildcatsare1 have the same perspective on needing that expanded soundstage for classical music to sound life-like.
 
But I'd challenge both of you on this perspective, because that's just not the whole picture of getting life-like-sounding classical music. True, classical music is usually performed in some type of concert hall or auditorium otherwise, and I definitely understand that some people seek to replicate that "soundstage" at home, whether it's on loudspeakers or headphones.
 
But as a musician myself (violinist, specifically), to equate "speaker-like" to "life-like" isn't the whole picture. What about the aspect of tonality? Don't you care if the strings sound fake or glossy? Or if the brass sounds shrill or too bronzy? Or the woodwinds nasal? Or that the percussion delivers ground-shaking impact? Or that loud fortissimos hit you in the chest from their intensity? Life-like includes that too, it's not only the soundstage.
 
For me, an orchestra in front of me is exactly what I want. Ideally I'd like to feel like I'm in the conductor's position, and not in the audience. The Stax OII MKI delivered exactly that for me when I owned it, which is just one reason why I liked it so much. It consistently made me feel like I was either directly in front of the orchestra, or even in it, and that was just one factor that contributed to it sounding life-like & realistic to me, as a violinist. I've played in orchestras before and know just how intense everything around me can sound; and if I can get that experience from headphones, then that's something I want!
 
That's just my take on this subject of classical music & soundstage, anyway, because this difference of opinion on Head-Fi isn't usually clearly seen & understood enough by those who listen to classical music. We're all fans of classical music, but it's obvious not all of us are really listening to the same thing.

 
Let me preface this: I don't question your approach in any way, and I understand it.
 
Of course accurate instrument timbres are very important to me, and I've already pointed out that the HE1000 excels in this respect to my ears, and that's even the main reason for rating it so high. I wouldn't list that under soundstage, though.
 
I'm one of those that sit in one of the front rows in classical concerts. I can't stand the reverberative sound farther away from the orchestra, it makes it impossible to follow the musical details. And I'm one of those who think classical concerts heard from a good speaker setup in an ideal acoustic environment provide a better insight to the musical message than live concerts. With live concerts of all kinds generally I miss the intimacy that I get from my home reproduction system, be it speakers (a thing of the past) or headphones.
 
What I hate with the latter is any hint of reverberation caused by the driver system itself – therefore e.g. the modification in my HD 800 and the careful damping in my electrostats. On the other hand, I like the effect from driver angling. What it does is enabling the ear, more exactly the pinna, to receive the sound waves in a more natural way than from a 90° impact, moreover to be acoustically involved at all or in a way approximately recreating the perception of a natural soundfield like from a frontal impact. This comes with a dose of reverberation, but of the sort that's always there in real life and totally absent just with in-ear monitors. The HE1000 doesn't have angled drivers, but its large membrane certainly involves the pinna to a great degree nonetheless, the more so as there's some distance between membrane and ear. The fact that it's a very open design prevents the build-up of massive (multiple) reflections between driver and ear, so the pinna involvement will have its effect in the form of a quasi-lifelike soundfield with just the wrong impact angle. These technical details aside, to me the sound from the HE1000 isn't overly distant at all, even rather close, compared to the (modified) HD 800 or my electrostats – both of which still provide a soundstage smaller than realistic to my ears.
 
But I like to be in the conductor's position as well or to have the orchestra right in front of me, just not right in front of my ears.
 
And BTW, the distance you're perceiving may partly also be caused by the recessed upper midrange. After equalizing it, even the hinted lack of impact has disappeared.
 
 

  Sorry if I irked you a bit with my comment, I just can't relate well to your critic of the SR009 headstage as compare to the SR007mk1 (I own both). The Omega 2 is more intimate but also more closed in relatively speaking, maybe this is what you are referring too / are after.
 
In regards to placement and layering / instrument separation, there is no question to me the SR009 feels superior to the Omega 2, although differences between the 2 phones are lessened by the use of BHSE amp (was much more obvious with the stock SRM727).

 
Hi Arnaud! I still haven't managed to audition the SR-009, but will certainly do once in my life.

 

 

[raypin]

Mmm......just auditioned my HE1K > dealer's set-up consisting of an AK player + Chord QBD76 DAC + Cypher Labs Sustain84 Vacuum tube amp. Wow! I left the shop deeply impressed. Made the already sweet-sounding HE1K even better. Only thing that kept me from buying on the spot is the Chord TT which my dealer will have on stock again later this month. Eagerly awaiting its arrival to pair with the HP.

 

[JaZZ]

Mmm......just auditioned my HE1K > dealer's set-up consisting of an AK player + Chord QBD76 DAC + Cypher Labs Sustain84 Vacuum tube amp. Wow! I left the shop deeply impressed. Made the already sweet-sounding HE1K even better. Only thing that kept me from buying on the spot is the Chord TT which my dealer will have on stock again later this month. Eagerly awaiting its arrival to pair with the HP.

 
That should sound great with the HE1000. Or wait for Dave?

 

[preproman]

   
I really appreciate your point of view, Asr.
But for me. as a listener and not a musician, my perspective must necessarily differ.
 
 

 
Agree with wink on this.  I like both Jazz and Classical.  
 
With both I'm the listener in the audience, not a musician nor the conductor.  
 
For classical music listening in a concert hall is indeed a bit distant with music filling the hall and coming at you from all over the place as I would sit a few rows back - if not many.   The HD800 / GS-X mk2 is best for this.
 
In a Jazz club, my seat will be more close and the club more closed in.  Therefore I use different headphones.  The HE1K / Abyss / Pass Labs INT-30A is best for this.
 
Of course IMO..

 

[JaZZ]

If somebody wants to try this EQ curve (xnor graphic equalizer) with foobar2000, here's the link.