[Acix]

Stemage, other headphones with sound coloration wont compensate for the lack of ability to make a good mix...

It's the other way around, if your mix isn't punchy on the K-701, it will not be punchy anywhere, because the other systems are just more colored, like EQ, bass boost, etc... more bass on other systems will make your mix more bassy, muddy and distorted. And you probably understand by now that this is not the result that you want. This is what made you buy the K 701 in the first place.

Maybe you have a problem hearing bass kick and the lower FR on the K701. A good SS amp can help here. But I'm not sure It's the amp issue, you just need to learn to trust yourself and to trust your ears.

Using a second pair of headphones is not a bad idea for reference with a high independence like RS-1, M-50, and GMP 8.35/435, until you learn your way around. These headphone are not so much amp dependent. You will have enough volume/level to hear the bass kick. This may help you learn and could build your self trust and develop golden ears.

You can do your homework on the reference CDs that you love, but do not forget most of these cds have been through a mastering process, so it's a little tricky to try to get the same results in your home studio without performing the mastering process.

It takes some time to practice the art of mixing and mastering. Lots of trial and error and just time. But the K 701 and 2 are the best that I can recommend in this price range to develop your skills.

 

[lejaz]

Acix: I'm still an amateur at this business, but as I understand it, the OP is saying that the k701 may be neutral/flat, but most consumer systems aren't flat. If he gets the mix to sound right on the 701/02 the bass will be way over the top when played over the average consumer set up or car stereo. How do you account for that when making a mix...that's the question as I see it. Most AE's, FWIR, try to use the most neutral/flat monitors available, and then they check how their mix sounds in the car and on other consumer systems.

 

[rds]

Why do you need to mix tracks to sound "good" on crappy systems. Presumably you're not mixing the next Miley Cyrus hit. Are you going to join in the loudness war too?
Seems pretty ironic for an audiophile.
Why not just mix tracks that sound good on good systems? I don't hear about classical recordings being mixed to sound good on crappy systems.

 

[Acix]

As I said, it's the other way around, let's say you mix a track with some bassy hps and you're happy with the result (a lot of bass in the mix). Now put this track in an SUV system that adds a minimum of 9 db on the low end, and you probably will get a distorted sound...now put a balanced mix on the same SUV system, and the extra boost of the sub will sound in the normal range and not distorted.

And it applies as well, on many others systems, when people like to add more bass or highs, with the company presets on the eq.

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do you need to mix tracks to sound "good" on crappy systems. Presumably you're not mixing the next Miley Cyrus hit. Are you going to join in the loudness war too? Seems pretty ironic for an audiophile. Why not just mix tracks that sound good on good systems? I don't hear about classical recordings being mixed to sound good on crappy systems.

Right...the classical recordings are mixed to be balanced, so they will sound good on any system. lol, even on SUV.

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do you need to mix tracks to sound "good" on crappy systems. I don't hear about classical recordings being mixed to sound good on crappy systems.

The simple answer is that the average classical listener doesn't listen on car stereos with over the top subs or crappy boom boxes. Most pop/hip hop/rock artists/AE's want their mixes to translate well to the average consumer system. The average consumer, after all, will be the ones who purchase their CD's.

 

[lejaz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif As I said, it's the other way around, let's say you mix a track with some bassy hps and you're happy with the result (a lot of bass in the mix). Now put this track in an SUV system that adds a minimum of 9 db on the low end, and you probably will get a distorted sound...now put a balanced mix on the same SUV system, and the extra boost of the sub will sound in the normal range and not distorted.

I think you have it backwards. If you mix with bass heavy hps your mix will have LESS bass than if you mix with bass light hps. If you mix with bass light hps(or even 'neutral/flat' hps) your resulting mix will have bass that's really over the top on many consumer systems with boosted low end and subs. At least that's the OP's main concern as I understand it.

 

[sampson_smith]

I think lejaz is right as well...

 

[Stemage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif let's say you mix a track with some bassy hps and you're happy with the result (a lot of bass in the mix). Now put this track in an SUV system that adds a minimum of 9 db on the low end, and you probably will get a distorted sound...now put a balanced mix on the same SUV system, and the extra boost of the sub will sound in the normal range and not distorted.

It’s not that I’m wanting to figure out what to BOOST to make mixes sound good. I’m trying to figure out what I need to CUT OUT.

So I have this old kick drum I accidently mixed because I forgot to take it to my car. It has this HORRIBLE overtone of around 40hz. I put on these headphones, and it is not there – just like it wasn’t there on my current monitor set up. The overtones are seriously terrible. A friend and I keep this mix around as an example of what NOT to do to a kick drum. A “good stereo” will showcase these overtones, and these headphones do not. That is inherently the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif if your mix isn't punchy on the K-701, it will not be punchy anywhere ... more bass on other systems will make your mix more bassy, muddy and distorted. … This is what made you buy the K 701 in the first place.

You are so very right - except for one part. Once you get these rock mixes to sound punchy on the k701s, you are pretty much leaving out the 20hz-50hz range entirely. This range could very well be boosted 5 db too high and you would simply not know it. You then end up with a mix that IS more bassy, muddy, and distorted on all other large systems as you put it. Again, I'm trying to shave off unnecessarily bassy nastiness - not trying to add as much as I can without breaking the mix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acix /img/forum/go_quote.gif do not forget most of these cds have been through a mastering process, so it's a little tricky to try to get the same results in your home studio without performing the mastering process.

Of course, and I do quick masters all the time. However, no one should be mixing BY mastering. A mix should sound good at the mix level, and should just be sweetened during the mastering process. Bass should not be scraped off or pushed up any substantial amount in the mastering process. You make a very valid point though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why do you need to mix tracks to sound "good" on crappy systems. Presumably you're not mixing the next Miley Cyrus hit. Are you going to join in the loudness war too? Seems pretty ironic for an audiophile. Why not just mix tracks that sound good on good systems? I don't hear about classical recordings being mixed to sound good on crappy systems.

I think I miscommunicated something here. I AM wanting to make mixes that are good on good systems - not mixes that are good for a thuggishly booming car stereo. The problem is that good home stereos naturally have better bass response, and push that 20-50hz range more intensely than the k701's. Oh, and the loudness war? Man, if you are mixing/mastering ANY rock or metal music, you are fighting in the war, and many times… on both sides.

I've battled with that and with myself for a long time on the subject. We're not talking about pumpy masters though, we're talking about frequencies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valens7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Varia Suite rocked my freakin' socks off Stemage. Thanks.

You are a frickin' sweetheart. Thank you.

Long story short, my HD600's just got here, and I think they will do the job nicely - and this is before the Millet amp is here. Any additional compensation I do will have to do be done between the sound card and the headphones with EQ (if at all). Thanks all for the responses and conversation!

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stemage /img/forum/go_quote.gif IOh, and the loudness war? Man, if you are mixing/mastering ANY rock or metal music, you are fighting in the war, and many times… on both sides. I've battled with that and with myself for a long time on the subject. We're not talking about pumpy masters though, we're talking about frequencies.

Are you saying that you do jack up the volume at the expense of headroom? I don't really understand what you're saying.

Also re the millet starving student. This is probably not a good choice for mastering. It is rolled off in the high and low frequencies and has tube distortion in between. It's a nice amp, it's just not a really accurate amp.

 

[Stemage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif Are you saying that you do jack up the volume at the expense of headroom? I don't really understand what you're saying.

It was truthful but obviously confusing. The truth is - I'm forced to strike a balance between what I feel sounds REALLY GOOD vs going against the other rock and metal albums that my mixes will be played alongside. If you want to keep up, you have to be loud. The trick is how to be loud without being sounding loud. That is why you fight on both sides of the war... if you are an engineer that loves music. In reality, all engineers love music, but you are constantly fighting for the casual ear, and that is really what started the war. That make any sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also re the millet starving student. This is probably not a good choice for mastering. It is rolled off in the high and low frequencies and has tube distortion in between. It's a nice amp, it's just not a really accurate amp.

Re: Millet - that could very well be the case. It's crazy reading around here, and I'm new. Someone's fav headphone is someone else's least fav. Someone's fav amp is someone else's least fav. From what I've read outside of this thread, this particular amp is less colored than other tube creations, and it would be a good try. I can always return it. My concern is obviously bass, and without the amp, I'm happy now. If it doesn't work, I'll start over again. I'm getting used to that.

 

[xnor]

My advice: whatever you pick up over here, take it with a grain of salt!

And if you really want reference grade equipment take a look at objective measurements too, be it RMAA, oscilloscope waveforms or whatever is available.

 

[Stemage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnor /img/forum/go_quote.gif And if you really want reference grade equipment take a look at objective measurements too, be it RMAA, oscilloscope waveforms or whatever is available.

Great idea. Any good ideas for sources? Link to get me started?

 

[dreamwhisper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sampson_smith /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just out of curiosity: What is that one good reason?

Mixing On Headphones

 

[Acix]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stemage /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are so very right - except for one part. Once you get these rock mixes to sound punchy on the k701s, you are pretty much leaving out the 20hz-50hz range entirely. This range could very well be boosted 5 db too high and you would simply not know it. You then end up with a mix that IS more bassy, muddy, and distorted on all other large systems as you put it. Again, I'm trying to shave off unnecessarily bassy nastiness - not trying to add as much as I can without breaking the mix.

You'll never doing to find any bass punch in the 20hz-50hz area, especially not with rock music. The reason is very simple: the frequency that gives the bass it's punch is much higher, the lowest that it starts is 60 hz and goes up to 150 hz. From there, you roll the bass down to 20-30hz.

You need to focus more on the upper bass and lower mid freq. This is where the punch of the bass resides, but I'm not going to get into a lesson on how to mix right now, just a quick tip.