[Gwarmi]

Quote:

 
It's all about synergy,i have three modest sound systems,and not one of my headphones mates well with all of them,if that makes any sense

 
 Yes exactly - hence why mating the PS1000 up to a high quality rig with synergy can be a case of the lottery
 
 If you get lucky off the bat then lucky times all round - the most disappointing potential being that a new owner
 sells off their current rig - not knowing that it already sounds pretty good - only to find that the new gear makes
 them sound positively nasty!
 
 The angst of it all!! 

 

[francoamerican]

I hope this doesn't annoy anybody, I posted this under mapletree thread - but it's also about my experience with my HF2
 
 
I have an idea (perhaps is well trod.. ) as to why the mapletree ear seems to be considered the best all tube (excluding rectification) headphone amp for grado.  
 
Of the non-hybrid tube amps I am aware of, the mapletree has by far the lowest output impedance:
 

1. 1.3 ohms for the Super 2.   
2. 7 ohms for the Ear+HD 
3. 28 ohm out for the DNA sonett 
4.  ~15 ohm (per ken rockwell's measurements) perhaps 32 ohm per other interactions people have had with Woo ( http://www.head-fi.org/t/428570/woo-audio-amp-owner-unite/15540#post_7881302 )

 
Per the discussion of headphone impedance on head-fi http://www.head-fi.org/a/headphone-impedance you want at least a 10 to 1 ratio between headphone and amp.
 
Now I know by sound all of those other amps are supposed to sound great (haven't heard them,) but anyway this is my observation of the circumstances on paper.
 
Am I way off base here?
 
thanks

 

[MrRaiiNMan]

Big Grado Labs fan here. You gotta have the right set of ears to enjoy their sound however.

 

[stacker45]

I just feel like sharing,since this is the Grado Fan thread,right now i'm listening to one of my three previously stated modest sound systems,wich consists of a 1973 Pioneer RT-1020 L reel to reel tape player,a 1978 Marantz 6350Q Turntable with an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge,and a 1975 Marantz 2220B reciever.
 
I'm listening to a live version of the Eagles,Hotel California with the tape player,i'm using my stock SR-80i,and can't stop grinnig,i still can't believe the sound quality i'm gettin out of these,especially considering their low price.
 
The whole rig cost me less than a grand,and that include,service of the tape player and reciever, plus 6 high quality Qantegy 456 tapes,and on top of that,i think that those old components are real lookers.
 
So there you have it,great sound,great looks and inexpensive on top of that,if someone would tell me that this is going to be THE only sound system i'll be lintening to for the rest of my life,i'd be happy,the SR-80i are such a no brainer,it's not even funny,what a great hobby this is!.
 
Please forgive me,i guess i just had an Hallmark moment.

 

[musiclover666]

Quote:

I just feel like sharing,since this is the Grado Fan thread,right now i'm listening to one of my three previously stated modest sound systems,wich consists of a 1973 Pioneer RT-1020 L reel to reel tape player,a 1978 Marantz 6350Q Turntable with an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge,and a 1975 Marantz 2220B reciever.
 
I'm listening to a live version of the Eagles,Hotel California with the tape player,i'm using my stock SR-80i,and can't stop grinnig,i still can't believe the sound quality i'm gettin out of these,especially considering their low price.
 
The whole rig cost me less than a grand,and that include,service of the tape player and reciever, plus 6 high quality Qantegy 456 tapes,and on top of that,i think that those old components are real lookers.
 
So there you have it,great sound,great looks and inexpensive on top of that,if someone would tell me that this is going to be THE only sound system i'll be lintening to for the rest of my life,i'd be happy,the SR-80i are such a no brainer,it's not even funny,what a great hobby this is!.
 
Please forgive me,i guess i just had an Hallmark moment.

 
Proof positive that you don't have to spend a whole crap load of money to enjoy this hobby. I am running Fubar>Wasapi>FiioE-10>Fiio E-11>Grado SR 80i and am enjoying the hell out of some Charlie Mingus! I have only had one, count 'em, one album I found didn't jive with my system, and I have put a lot of music through these things since I have gotten them. It wasn't even that it sounded bad, it was just meh. And as you well know Grados aren't a 'meh' HP. It was probably just my mood.
 
Anyway, back to some more "East Coasting" with Charlie Mingus.
 
Enjoy!

 

[shimmer n roar]

Quote:

 
Actually... matching the impedance and the current or voltage requirements of the phones and amp is highly critical to how the phones sound - too little current for low impedance phones, or too little voltage for high impedance phones will result in harsh sound and flabby bass, as the result of clipping, and other aberrations in the sound.  It is not a subtle difference.  

 
well i think the importance of this is overstated, particularly where grados are concerned. they are renowned for having synergy with a variety of amps that have different impedance ratings, such as the mad ear+hd (which was designed by dr lloyd peppard using the 300 ohms sennheiser hd 600 as the test headphone), zana deux (which is an otl amp that in theory should not be an optimal match for low impedance headphones like grados), sonett and woo amps - just to name a few. grados are so efficient that they don't require amping but should benefit from it to some degree, and headroom says as much at their site. gauging the level of improvement seems to depend upon who you ask. having tried mine with a variety of sources including head amps, i'd describe the changes in performance as subtle... actually.
 
Quote:

 Yes I would say because of the 'high end monitor' type like sound that the HD800 exhibits along with many other
 technical and particular requirements of that 300-ohm headphone - it is a chameleon of a headphone, changing
 it's colours as it goes from different rig to different rig. I'd say the RS1i is one of the most
 versatile offerings in the Grado range - in my opinion it benefits from a slightly bright amping source to really bring
 out it's true personality - anything too warm for my ears makes them a little too warbly and slows them
 down.
 
 Transformative is perhaps a leaps and bounds term, a bridge too far - but I can tell you this, I did find myself
 at a friend's place with my pair of PS1000's a little while ago and could not believe the amount of sibilance
 and nastiness we were hearing - he more or less thought I was a crackpot for owning such a headphone
 - it was bad enough for me to think that I'd hit a burn-in snag or they were now faulty.
 His rig is tuned for the Audeze LCD2/3  - so a bit of brightness makes a lot of sense.
 
 Got home - ahhh relief - they just did not gel with his Audio-gd Ref 5, cabling and V200. Keep in mind we
 both have the same amp!! Biggest differences I reckon were that he is trialing some new software under
 Windows 8 (no EQ was used) - to make doubly sure, the RS1i was played into the mix and it never
 altered it's style - quite unlike the PS1000 which is obviously quite the Diva.

 
if that's been your experience with the ps1000, then who am i to doubt you?

 

[dsavitsk]

I hope this doesn't annoy anybody, I posted this under mapletree thread - but it's also about my experience with my HF2


I have an idea (perhaps is well trod.. ) as to why the mapletree ear seems to be considered the best all tube (excluding rectification) headphone amp for grado.  



Of the non-hybrid tube amps I am aware of, the mapletree has by far the lowest output impedance:

You are probably correct that the Mapletree sounds good with Grados in part because of its output impedance, but you are incorrect as to the why. The Mapletree actually has quite a high Zout. The Z from the cathode of the 12B4 is ~160 ohms. This is reduced by the output transformer by a factor of ~150 which leads to just over an ohm. But this is misleading as you also have to add the copper resistance of the transformer itself. I don't have any Hammond 119's around anymore, but I recall this being in the 10 to 15 ohm range.

And, my experience suggests that 10 ohms or so is in fact ideal for Grados with a voltage source amplifier.

Per the discussion of headphone impedance on head-fi http://www.head-fi.org/a/headphone-impedance you want at least a 10 to 1 ratio between headphone and amp.

That discussion is overly simple, and geared toward speakers that have impedance curves that look like this:

Grado impedance is incredibly flat, almost like a resistor:

Which means that they can be driven differently. In fact, I drive my grados with a current source amp that has an output impedance of ~500 ohms (similar in concept to a FirstWatt F1) -- sounds great.

 

[francoamerican]

This is really great info and I really appreciate it.  
 
So with tube amps, lower output impedance is not necessarily automatically better - but some damping is desirable?
 
I actually have the Super 2 which is a different circuit that has EL84s and a  published  output impedance of either 1.3 or 2.6 (still uses the hammond 119da)  I wonder why he went that route?
 
thanks again!

 

[dsavitsk]

So with tube amps, lower output impedance is not necessarily automatically better - but some damping is desirable?

It does not necessarily only apply to tube amps. I like transformers on the output of solid state amps, too.

For phones, it is a case-by-case thing. But, the blanket statement that lower Zout is always better is not true in all cases. With Grados in particular (and frankly with things like the Senn 800s, Beyers, and some other Senns too) a too low Zout seems to make them sound harsh and lacking in bass.

I actually have the Super 2 which is a different circuit that has EL84s and a  published  output impedance of either 1.3 or 2.6 (still uses the hammond 119da)  I wonder why he went that route?

Absent feedback, the 1.3 ohm spec is likely wrong. You can convince yourself of this with a $5 multimeter, 2 resistors (or two sets of headphones), and a 60Hz test signal (60Hz because cheap meters will work there). Load the amp with a high Z load (300R senns, a resistor, etc). Run the test signal, and measure the AC voltage on the output. Then, replace the high load with a low one (Grados, a 32R resistor) across the same winding. Without changing anything else (the signal level, the volume control, which output is selected, etc.) measure the AC voltage. Assuming you got reasonably accurate measurements, you can determine the Zout from this.

As for why he would switch to the EL84 -- probably easier to get consistent samples. The 12B4 is no longer manufactured, and it can be a noisy tube that has a tendency to oscillate.

 

[francoamerican]

Well that makes me feel better actually!  
 
I was worried my mapletree super 2 might have too low of Zout based on your 10 ohm recommendation (which recommendation totally makes sense based on that resistance-across-the-spectrum chart you showed)    I reviewed the circuit diagram at the end of this document here http://hollowstate.netfirms.com/Super2manual.pdf_and I do not believe there is negative feedback.  
 
My mapletree amp definitely seems to have better bass than my 1 ohm output meier concerto.
 
So I'm not quite certain where to "stick my multimeter" - I may try and play around with it - but i really appreciate all of the info!    
 
FA
 
FYI Your stuff looks pretty awesome too!

 

[LCfiner]

I probably shouldn't have done this just now but I found a pretty good price for a like-new PS1000 and bought it. I'll have it by next week.

$1100 and it looks barely used. How could I say no? That's the best price I've ever seen.

Now I can have a proper hp1000 vs ps1000 face off.

 

[Gwarmi]

Quote:

I probably shouldn't have done this just now but I found a pretty good price for a like-new PS1000 and bought it. I'll have it by next week.
$1100 and it looks barely used. How could I say no? That's the best price I've ever seen.
Now I can have a proper hp1000 vs ps1000 face off.

 
 Nice one - the PS1000 camp is growing by the day - looking forward to this face-off even though I know that deep down - I'm not sure anyone even
 owns a HP1000 in Australia

 

[Gradofan2]

Quote:

 
 Nice one - the PS1000 camp is growing by the day - looking forward to this face-off even though I know that deep down - I'm not sure anyone even
 owns a HP1000 in Australia

 
Yes... as much as I like my PS500's... I may just have to pick up a pair myself.  

 

[desertblues]

Just pulled the trigger on PS500's, maybe someday the 1000's. Really looking forward to those 500's now...

 

[stacker45]

Quote:

I probably shouldn't have done this just now but I found a pretty good price for a like-new PS1000 and bought it. I'll have it by next week.
$1100 and it looks barely used. How could I say no? That's the best price I've ever seen.
Now I can have a proper hp1000 vs ps1000 face off.

Congrats on the 1000,i don't know why you say you shouldn't have done this,be i think you'll be glad you did soon enough,since i got mine a couple of months ago,my HP-1000 don't see much action and my GS-1000 get even less.
 
I'm looking forward to your impressions,in my opinion,the PS-1000 has better extension at the frequency extremes,and a wider soundstage,but the all important midrange sound similar,so depending on what you're listening ,the difference can be very subtle.