[boclcown]

 
Quote:

baka1969

UE beat me to it, and I will not debate this, but purchasing several headphones with the intentions of only keeping one and returning the others is unethical. Period. And I, for one, will not do business with any Head-fi'er who does as such. I know there are many on Head-Fi that feel as I do.

 
Ross,
 
I understand where you are coming from. But I think that you might be overreacting a bit. I'm assuming that you will agree with me in the supposition that buying one pair of headphones, deciding you don't like it after a week, and returning it is not unethical - instead, it is something that I would say a majority of the members on this forum have done at one time or another. I think you would also agree that, after having returned a pair of headphones, it would not be unethical to buy a different pair of headphones from that same vendor. What is so immoral about my condensing this obviously ethical set of purchases into one? 

 

[baka1969]

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin  

"I fail to see how someones opinion can be wrong....<snip>"

Some opinions are indeed wrong. If someone's opinion is that something square is round when it is by all definition square that is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maverickronin

"<snip>...Buying 2 pairs of headphones from the same place and returning one, would count as a good faith effort to purchase something from that retailer, since you plan to keep one...."

That is not good faith when the intention is to return one of the items and cost the retailer money. That is the exact issue I have a major problem with.

Again, I will repeat, if you buy a single item and decide later it isn't for you or there's a problem, that's what the return policy if for. The retailer is not your personal long-term audition station for multiple items when the purchaser knowingly is costing the store money.

 

[baka1969]

Quote:
Originally Posted by boclcown  


" Ross,
I understand where you are coming from. But I think that you might be overreacting a bit. I'm assuming that you will agree with me in the supposition that buying one pair of headphones, deciding you don't like it after a week, and returning it is not unethical - instead, it is something that I would say a majority of the members on this forum have done at one time or another. I think you would also agree that, after having returned a pair of headphones, it would not be unethical to buy a different pair of headphones from that same vendor. What is so immoral about my condensing this obviously ethical set of purchases into one? "

The situations are different in key areas. It not just a set of semantics. In the original scenario there is a clear intention to return an item. What's to prevent someone from purchasing (say) five headphones and audition them and return the four you don't like? Is three okay but four draws the line?

In your above example you also don't have the ability to A/B the items against each other. So, there is a chance you might like and keep the first purchased headphone even if you'd prefer the second one you never heard. Buy purchasing both, you are intentionally costing the retailer money. Purchasing them separately, you may or may not.

As I said before, intent is the issue.

Peace,

Ross

 

[Ruffle]

The intent is to buy two pairs of headphones and decide which two pairs to keep.
 
Buy all three and return the one you don't like.  I see no ethical quandaries over this, but in fact generous patronage of giving the vendor $700.  

 

[boclcown]

Ross, 
 
The crux of your argument is that "intent is the issue." I asked you for the difference between the two scenarios, and you pointed out, correctly, that there is intent to return one of the pairs in the second, but there is not necessarily that exact same sort of intent in the first scenario. First, I propose to you this: I think you would agree that the fact that so many of us head-fi'ers make use of retailers' return policies, that many of us in fact do anticipate the possibility of returning the item. I think I can say that a significant reason why someone would choose to buy a headphone new rather than used is because of the notion that one can return the item. In making the purchase rather than looking for a used pair, there is intent even in this. 
 
I grant that you could nitpick this response, but let me ask you to do away with responding as if this were a flame war and consider the bigger picture: 
 
Arguments about "intent" to return an item are frivilous because having the "intent" to return an item is not by itself unethical. You yourself said that the reason such practice is wrong is because it hurts the retailer. If the practice doesn't cost the retailer, then it doesn't matter whether someone has the intent to do the practice, at least from a moral perspective, which is the one I'm assuming you are pursuing.
 
I say to you, my decision to buy two headphones from amazon and return one is not immoral or unethical because I am not hurting the company. Amazon's prices are competative, but they are not the lowest available, and I have spent enough time researching these three headphones to know that my buying them new from Amazon means that I will be paying more than I need to. The fact is that I will only make purchases from a company that will ensure that they allow me to return any item I purchase without worrying. If Amazon had not posessed a liberal return policy, I would not consider buying any pair of headphones from them. Amazon may have to take a return and sell a product of theirs without making any profit (while still recapping their losses), but they are rewarded for this inconvenience by my repeat business. 
 
There is no reason for you to worry about the action being unethical if the company isn't worried about it. Amazon opts for their return policy because they know it is a source of repeat customers. If they were being harmed by the policy, they would impose restrictions. Amazon, at the end of the day, will be looking at their income statements, and even with me returning a pair, the company will still be better off than if I had chosen to go buy used or elsewhere. 

 

[baka1969]

I disagree.

I've made my point. If I stand alone then so be it.

I know I'm not the only one who believes the way I do however.

I'm finished discussing this. Thank you.

 

[boclcown]

You made your point, but, just as you said, opinions can be wrong, and yours is. 

 

[Uncle Erik]

You made your point, but, just as you said, opinions can be wrong, and yours is. 

How about you give HeadRoom a call and ask them where their B-stock comes from? You should note that the B-stock is listed at a lower price.

Also, returns don't always cost the retailer. They can cost the manufacturer, as well. Returns cannot be sold as new, so sometimes the sales contract between the manufacturer and retailer allows the retailer to send back returned goods for a refund or credit.

Are you arguing that Amazon is big enough to absorb losses? They probably are, but that doesn't make what you're doing right.

If you have any doubts about the cost of returns, take a course on Cost Accounting. Or ask someone who does accounting for a retail business - returns are a huge expense.

 

[maverickronin]

I also forgot to mention the small amount of interest they make over that 30 days you have to decide to return or not.
 
Boclcown also pointed out another fact that demolishes the anti-return position.  What's the point of buying new if you can't return it?  It's not like there's much to wear out, and they come pre burned in, so buying used is an advantage in every other area, yet used is cheaper.  Why?  In large part because you can't return it.  I know I pay extra for that safety net.

 

[baka1969]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Erik  


" How about you give HeadRoom a call and ask them where their B-stock comes from? You should note that the B-stock is listed at a lower price.
Also, returns don't always cost the retailer. They can cost the manufacturer, as well. Returns cannot be sold as new, so sometimes the sales contract between the manufacturer and retailer allows the retailer to send back returned goods for a refund or credit.
Are you arguing that Amazon is big enough to absorb losses? They probably are, but that doesn't make what you're doing right.
If you have any doubts about the cost of returns, take a course on Cost Accounting. Or ask someone who does accounting for a retail business - returns are a huge expense."

UE, they didn't seem to grasp the ethics involved, I wasn't about to give course in business accounting. Some people just don't get it. I just hope other newbies who read this thread will see the practice for what it really is. Unethical.

 

[Trysaeder]

[size=small]Someone wants to buy two headphones, one of them doesn't suit him, he returns it.[/size]
What's the problem here? How do you know his intent? Do you know someone on the internet from what they write better than they do? Because we all know that no one ever lies or paraphrases on the internet...
 
I see the return policy as a safety net. I do all the research I can, then I go out and buy the headphone. 100% of the time I have been satisfied, but if that were to change, I would have confidence in the store I bought from to return it if somehow it did not suit me.
 
Purely buying to try them out is quite expensive and not the most efficient, so there are meets and used forums for that. However you cannot say that a person merely 'tried' a headphone because he returned it, as if he did all the research, and had to take advantage of the safety net in the end, it would be treated as fine. You cannot know if he has done the research or not.
 
also: chinesekiwi and everyone else, stop being such fanboys. All three have their strengths and weaknesses, DT880 is right in the middle of both of them.

 

[Bigrock2150]

From what I hear, the hd650 and the k701 have a bigger difference in sound than the hd650 and dt880. So if you want to chose from two headphones that can give you different strengths go with the HD650/k701 duo. Whatever you do, DON'T pass up on the HD650 though. If you got the K701 and the dt880, you'd probably have a hard time deciding which one to keep. Although the choice between the dt880 and the hd650 wouldn't be very easy either. The dt880 might be the best allrounder of the 3 though. Any way you go I don't think you'll feel like you missed out. The difference in most of the mid range audiophile cans isn't different in sound quality but more so different in sound preference.

 

[maverickronin]

Yes it does cost the retailer a little money, but that is the cost of doing business, no different from paying the rent, or utilities, since they are they ones who decided their return policy.  How far are you going to take this idea of maximizing someone else's profits?  Is it unethical to buy something you know has a small margin?  Should you buy something with a large margin instead?  How about using your credit card, instead of cash?  They get charged a fee on that transaction you know.  What if you call up a sales rep and ask a lot of long and difficult questions, but end up not buying anything?
 
The point is not that it is ok to stick it to the man, or that large faceless corporations don't count as people, or that we don't care about what happens to someone else.  The point is that companies have these policies because they think it will make them more money than they will cost.  If a company gets too many returns, then they are free to raise prices or tighten up their return policy.  Likewise, a consumer is free to purchase from a retailer with a lower price, but a stricter return policy.  Accepting returns is good customer service and comes at a small premium.  That premium makes up the costs of accepting returns.  It's that simple.

 

[David.M]

Once the user returns the headphones, can it be possible that Amazon just re-packages them and sells them as new?  Imagine if this is the type of stuff going on in the Amazon Warehouses? I would be extremely pissed If this sort of stuff is happening in ever-day transit, but it's highly unlikely since Amazon is a well respected and reputable company.
 
I agree that it's disrespectful to return them, but not everyone likes buying used stuff, moreover, people live in areas that don't even have places to audition headphones. I neither favor nor am i against the return policy for people who like to abuse. You find the headphone closest to your requirements: You pays your money and you take your chances.

 

[tvrboy]

Businesses and consumers have an adversarial relationship. Each is supposed to take advantage of the other to the maximum extent possible. That's really what makes capitalism work so well, at least according to every economic textbook I ever read. If you start feeling sorry for the people that want to get as much of your money as the possibly can, then you are not a very saavy consumer or a good member of a capitalist society.