[nesf]

Quote:

Here you go kind sir:
 
http://www.headfonia.com/?s=HD598
 

Right, so they talk about dark HD6xx there and relatively speaking bright HD5xx there. Are those just relative qualities or are they working off some defined point of neutrality and deviations from that? 

 

[LizardKing1]

Quote:

Thank you for the clarification. I suppose this brings me to the following question: should I look at getting a good quality set of neutral cans at some point to give me some perspective on this and to give me a chance to listen to music as it was meant to sound when it was mastered? I ask mostly because I want to listen to classical recordings as close to their original sound as possible (though this wasn't a concern of mine when I got the HD25-IIs). 
 
Second question: How are the HD598s for neutrality compared to the HD25-IIs? Also, where is a good place for reviews that are accurate in this respect? Or is this just something I'm going to have to learn the hard way by comparing people's review of equipment I'm familiar with?

I think you should get something neutral, like the SRH940 or the DT880, which are also very detailed models. The reason is that you already have a pair of cans which to me encompass what fun sound is, I don't think that if you have the HD 25-ii you need more U-shaped models.
 
Expressions like "what the artist intended", "what was recorded" and "original sound" get some mocking by objectivists here at Head-Fi. It's a normal request, to want to hear the original sound, but it fails on 2 aspects:
1) A flat curve doesn't mean neutrality. Our ears aren't perfect microphones, and with headphones a bad seal or an angled driver might have huge sonic differences. So even if you have a driver creating a perfectly flat sound, like white noise, what your ears are receiving might not be completely flat. In fact when measuring headphones for frequency response graphs, they add an equalizer to change the sound into what our ears perceive.
2) All analog (non-digital) equipment has interferences that change sound. There is a lot of debate wether this has any audible repercussions - I'm yet to find someone who will pass a blind test between a shielded cable and an unshielded equal cable - but the interferences are there. So even if you have a ruler-flat response from a pair of headphones, unless everything else is as flat, the sound is colored.
I'm sorry for the unrequested info, but I feel this is important stuff to know for new members (which I'm assuming you are).
 
As for where to get reviews, Head-Fi is an obvious place. Read as much as you can and look for aspects in common, like if 8 out of 10 reviews mention how clear something is, you can be confident that you too will find it clear. A very good source of info for established models are the appreciation threads, I'm not sure if the HD598 has one since it's kind of recent. I never trust any review from a website that is selling the product, since they usually use those common adjectives on anything (Headroom's description of the Beats Studio is great for lols). InnerFidelity is a great source because they care both about objective measurements and graphs and subjective impressions, which is how I feel you should make a decision on buying something.

 

[steelbite]

Tried Beats "noise cancelling ones" the bass is nice, sounds warm, but mids are crap, high sounds a lill better but still no good
Beats are all show and no go
personally nothing can beat the price/sound quality of an hd668b
sold my grado and my AT 50 and got myself 2 superluxes 661-668
and use the extra cash to get a pioneer eq
now i just enjoy my music, need nothing else
 

 

[throzen0303]

Quote:

Tried Beats "noise cancelling ones" the bass is nice, sounds warm, but mids are crap, high sounds a lill better but still no good
Beats are all show and no go
personally nothing can beat the price/sound quality of an hd668b
sold my grado and my AT 50 and got myself 2 superluxes 661-668
and use the extra cash to get a pioneer eq
now i just enjoy my music, need nothing else
 

The bass is not nice at all, carry no texture or detail, mids is crap, the highs is crap, the build quality is next to no good, the noise cancelling is not as good as Sennheiser or BOSE or Denon or ....
 

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

First thing to break are his headphones, then my hand from the plastic shards that exploded from the impact. Still all these beats nightmare are getting more real by the day to the point it might actually happen, but I'm scared I might get jumped from other beats fans for beating a beats owner. >.>
 
 

we head'fier s have ur back in case that happens remember to go in groups. all decked out in beyers, sennehsiers, ultrasones, grados

 

[steelbite]

I use an EQ, they can handle the bass when overdriven but nothing else

 

[nesf]

Quote:

I think you should get something neutral, like the SRH940 or the DT880, which are also very detailed models. The reason is that you already have a pair of cans which to me encompass what fun sound is, I don't think that if you have the HD 25-ii you need more U-shaped models.
 
Expressions like "what the artist intended", "what was recorded" and "original sound" get some mocking by objectivists here at Head-Fi. It's a normal request, to want to hear the original sound, but it fails on 2 aspects:
1) A flat curve doesn't mean neutrality. Our ears aren't perfect microphones, and with headphones a bad seal or an angled driver might have huge sonic differences. So even if you have a driver creating a perfectly flat sound, like white noise, what your ears are receiving might not be completely flat. In fact when measuring headphones for frequency response graphs, they add an equalizer to change the sound into what our ears perceive.
2) All analog (non-digital) equipment has interferences that change sound. There is a lot of debate wether this has any audible repercussions - I'm yet to find someone who will pass a blind test between a shielded cable and an unshielded equal cable - but the interferences are there. So even if you have a ruler-flat response from a pair of headphones, unless everything else is as flat, the sound is colored.
I'm sorry for the unrequested info, but I feel this is important stuff to know for new members (which I'm assuming you are).
 
As for where to get reviews, Head-Fi is an obvious place. Read as much as you can and look for aspects in common, like if 8 out of 10 reviews mention how clear something is, you can be confident that you too will find it clear. A very good source of info for established models are the appreciation threads, I'm not sure if the HD598 has one since it's kind of recent. I never trust any review from a website that is selling the product, since they usually use those common adjectives on anything (Headroom's description of the Beats Studio is great for lols). InnerFidelity is a great source because they care both about objective measurements and graphs and subjective impressions, which is how I feel you should make a decision on buying something.

Unrequested (and especially technical) info is very much appreciated and wanted here anyway. I started asking questions here because I want to learn more, not just to hear what I want to hear. 
 
I appreciate the problems with reproducing any sound and trying to recreate exactly what was present when it was recorded. I'm more thinking of getting away from headphones that colour the music in a significant enough way to make it noticeable. Or in other words I'd like to listen to my piano music sounding like a live piano not like a slightly darker or brighter version of a piano if that makes sense, despite the fact that I might actually enjoy a brighter version of a piano more! This is more an experience thing, I've never had the luxury of listening to music through neutral headphones or on neutral speakers and I'm deeply curious as to what it's like. If I don't like it's and prefer a more coloured sound then that's fine with me. That and, to create such a neutral sound wouldn't I have to address all parts of the equipment chain? Making this possibly more expensive and hasslesome than its worth for curiosities sake? Or am I missing your point here? (Edit: On rereading, yeah I completely missed your point)
 
Am I right in thinking that colouring of sound is quite a subjective thing given the variance in people's hearing and unconscious biases? That even with measurements we're only getting part of the picture in terms of this? That my mildly bright could be your bright and so on? 

 

[LizardKing1]

Well let's imagine 2 people in a room and a third person playing the piano. We're both hearing the same sound waves, or with very small and neglegible differences. That is our natural. When we hear the same sound file from the same headphones through the same sound chain, I assume whatever impressions we had would be the same, so if you thought it was distorted, or dark-sounding, I'd think the same. It doesn't mean we perceived the same sound, but the difference between both sounds (live piano vs listened through headphones) would be the same. Like if 2 people look at  2 pieces of paper painted in 2 shades of green, one brighter and the other one darker. We might seen green in different ways, how can we be sure we're actually 'seeing' the same color? However, I think we'd both agree on which one was the darkest and which one was brighter, since it's not about absolute sight, but differences between colors. It's a confusing example, but I think you can see my point.
 
Having completely neutral equipment is very expensive. The thing is, at a certain point you need to understand that paying 1000$ more on a better amp to get rid of that 1dB 'spike' just isn't worth it. Any equalizer will do the same. You can still get very good and very neutral gear with a small budget, for example you have the O2 amp which is very flat and measures amazingly, with everyone reporting how they simply don't hear the amp in the chain.
 
As for measurements, they're an important part of making decisions. You can have mixed opinions, while one says "sparkly and detailed treble", someone else says "bright and bass-less". A graph won't lie, it has no opinion. Some thing you can't get from measurements, like soundstage or some small aspects of sound, and on those we rely mostly on reviews, but I think a healthy combination of both objective and subjective input is the best way to go.

 

[nesf]

Quote:

Well let's imagine 2 people in a room and a third person playing the piano. We're both hearing the same sound waves, or with very small and neglegible differences. That is our natural. When we hear the same sound file from the same headphones through the same sound chain, I assume whatever impressions we had would be the same, so if you thought it was distorted, or dark-sounding, I'd think the same. It doesn't mean we perceived the same sound, but the difference between both sounds (live piano vs listened through headphones) would be the same. Like if 2 people look at  2 pieces of paper painted in 2 shades of green, one brighter and the other one darker. We might seen green in different ways, how can we be sure we're actually 'seeing' the same color? However, I think we'd both agree on which one was the darkest and which one was brighter, since it's not about absolute sight, but differences between colors. It's a confusing example, but I think you can see my point.
 
Having completely neutral equipment is very expensive. The thing is, at a certain point you need to understand that paying 1000$ more on a better amp to get rid of that 1dB 'spike' just isn't worth it. Any equalizer will do the same. You can still get very good and very neutral gear with a small budget, for example you have the O2 amp which is very flat and measures amazingly, with everyone reporting how they simply don't hear the amp in the chain.
 
As for measurements, they're an important part of making decisions. You can have mixed opinions, while one says "sparkly and detailed treble", someone else says "bright and bass-less". A graph won't lie, it has no opinion. Some thing you can't get from measurements, like soundstage or some small aspects of sound, and on those we rely mostly on reviews, but I think a healthy combination of both objective and subjective input is the best way to go.

Yeah I do see your point. Background is Physics, Applied Maths, Philosophy and Economics so I enjoy these kinds of debates and, well, have a liking for hard evidence over subjective when it comes to most things that can be measured. Preaching to the (noob) converted a little here etc. 
 
I'm really not interested in sinking a lot of money into amps etc because I'm really quite sceptical of the benefits sonically value for money wise. The O2 is appealing because I used to build electronic stuff as a teenager and wouldn't mind soldering something again! Though the pre-built option would be handier. 
 
My issue with graphs is that they're only as good as the person's ability and experience making them. It's quite a trivial thing to do to set things up wrong and get quite inaccurate results when measuring anything. Or to be measuring something in the wrong way. (absolutely massive problems in the social sciences) It's not that I don't trust a graph or anything silly like that, I just wouldn't accept a graph from a source I didn't know something about or when the setup isn't reported. It's a bit like me comparing two amps that aren't playing at the same volume as a simple example (I don't know enough about sonic stuff yet to give a better one). Though a complete beginner here with this stuff, all I have is a ok enough grasp of electrical signals and such from Physics. So very much looking for guidance here. 
 
 
So, I can look at getting an O2 amp (or possibly the O2 + DAC board) for a neutral set up and pair it with one of the headphones you listed earlier perhaps? I've an E10 at the moment, I think anyway it falls into the fun amp/DAC category, or at least it seems to emphasise the bass a bit for my ears (am waiting on NwAVGuy's review of it with baited breath).  Any other advice/tips for me? 

 

[Enter Darkness]

Quote:

LOL I was in bestbuy literally last week and asked if they had the Sennheiser HD598's and they looked at me and said why waste your money on those, the beats are better by a long shot. At that point I decided to turn around and walk away....oh best buy employees when will you learn. 

 
My best buy says don't buy beats get sennheiser or shure. But then again they know me by now. I am always in there talking about audio equipment.

 

[bowei006]

Quote:

 
My best buy says don't buy beats get sennheiser or shure. But then again they know me by now. I am always in there talking about audio equipment.

hahah, they know to tell that to the person who knows headphones. if they say that to someone else...managers office lolz. the beats are very very lucrative products
 
 

 

[DigitalFreak]

Quote:

Thank you for the clarification. I suppose this brings me to the following question: should I look at getting a good quality set of neutral cans at some point to give me some perspective on this and to give me a chance to listen to music as it was meant to sound when it was mastered? I ask mostly because I want to listen to classical recordings as close to their original sound as possible (though this wasn't a concern of mine when I got the HD25-IIs). 
 
Second question: How are the HD598s for neutrality compared to the HD25-IIs? Also, where is a good place for reviews that are accurate in this respect? Or is this just something I'm going to have to learn the hard way by comparing people's review of equipment I'm familiar with?

Something else I'd like to add a neutral can isn't for everyone. The thing you have to remember is a neutral can is one of the most unforgiving types of headphones you can purchase. Before you even think of buying a neutral headphone you first have to have a great recorded source (music) as well as a neutral amp/DAC. Amps and DAC's can be as colored as a headphone and if you have a neutral headphone mated to say a Burson 160D for example which is known for being slightly on the warm side you just defeated the purpose of buying a neutral headphone.
 
Considering you're new to this my advice to you is forget neutral right now and just concentrate on finding something that sounds real good to your ears. What I'm suggesting is try experimenting with different cans that are slightly warm or slightly north of neutral and encroaches on the analytical side. Find out which type of sound signature works well for the type of music you listen to and above all make sure to your ears it sounds fun. Some people get a little to carried away with the technical side of this hobby and forget that music is supposed to be fun. Mix and match a little and see what works for you and once you have some experience in gear then concentrate on a neutral rig. Don't be afraid to try out a K701 and see what a big sound stage sounds like or maybe try out a Grado and see what forward sounding mid's sound like. Maybe even try mating them to a nice tube amp like a Bottlehead Crack and see for yourself how the sound changes and whether to your ears it works for you. Try a couple of bass heavy cans and see if it's your cup of tea and while doing this have fun along the way. Get yourself involved in this community make a few friends and attend a couple of headphone meets in your city. Headphone meets for me taught me a lot about different headphone sound signatures without me having to spend my whole pay cheque.  Most people who own a neutral rig are usually the people who have a few years experience in the hobby have experimented with the different sounds out there and have collected the source material that will shine on a neutral rig. If you think spending the farm on a neutral rig will make your collection of Eminem or The Black Eyed Peas sound any better trust me when I tell you if anything it will make the music sound terrible.
 
Something else you should remember everyone hears differently. For example I usually like to play in the analytical side of the sound spectrum. I'm coming from headphones such as Grado SR60i's, Beyerdynamic DT1350 headphones and UE700 and Sony MDR EX600 IEM's. For me, and I emphasize this is just me, good bass is tight deep and controlled. Recently I began to play around and experiment in the bass head realm of things. I actually like crazy doof doof doof bass BUT it's not my sound signature of choice. I mess around with gear such as Sony MDR EX500 and 700 and Monster Pro Turbine Coppers IEM's as a means of changing it up now and again and having some fun. If I'm going to spend big money though my first priority will always be gear that to many bass heads is considered bass anemic and hot in the treble. For me what a bass head would consider a hot treble I consider sparkly and airy. Everyone's different based on what works for them sound wise. Another example, recently I bought the Klipsh X10 IEM during a black Friday sale. The X10 to my ears is what I consider bass centric and as far as I'm concerned it's bassy. It doesn't boom out at you per say but it's bass is warm well defined low reaching and has some good slam behind it. When I went on the X10 impression thread on Head-Fi I was shocked that there were people complaining there wasn't enough bass on the X10. A little research through the thread and some checking of profiles and I found the answer why these people were complaining about lack of bass. Most of these people were either coming from very bassy headphones such as Ultrasone Pro900's or Sony MDR XB 500's or were upgrading up the Klipsh product line from a S4. The Klipsh S4 is for a lack of a better word a bass cannon IEM. I own the S4 and I can only describe the bass on it as visceral and has a huge slam behind it. For people coming from gear that has extreme bass a X10 will almost sound anemic because they're used to the more extreme end of things. Try and keep that in mind when reading reviews from other people.
 
The last thing I have to say is you've gotten off to a great start. The Sennheiser HD25-i-ii is a wonderful headphone and makes a superb all arounder. If you like what you hear then run with it and start looking up other u shaped cans or other Sennheiser cans. For me personally, I tried to get a small taste of the best as far as mobile headphones are concerned. On the analytical side of things I have the DT1350 for genres such as jazz and brass band music and on the bass centric side of things I have the V-MODA M-80 which is wonderful for trance hip hop and pop music. For my hard rock and metal I go with my HD25-I-II because as far as I'm concerned the only other can that can do aggressive guitar better is a Grado. I also always keep my HD25-I-II in my backpack at all times because in a pinch it can stand in for my other headphones and do most genres well enough to satisfy me.
 
Just my two cents.

 

[PsyMed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCCnqPQcR5E
 
Anyone know what these are? The person isn't using what he endorses apparently...

 

[Parall3l]

Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCCnqPQcR5E
 
Anyone know what these are? The person isn't using what he endorses apparently...

Beyerdynamic DT770 PRO at the start I think, then its the HD280

 

[nesf]

Quote:

Something else I'd like to add a neutral can isn't for everyone. The thing you have to remember is a neutral can is one of the most unforgiving types of headphones you can purchase. Before you even think of buying a neutral headphone you first have to have a great recorded source (music) as well as a neutral amp/DAC. Amps and DAC's can be as colored as a headphone and if you have a neutral headphone mated to say a Burson 160D for example which is known for being slightly on the warm side you just defeated the purpose of buying a neutral headphone.
 
Considering you're new to this my advice to you is forget neutral right now and just concentrate on finding something that sounds real good to your ears. What I'm suggesting is try experimenting with different cans that are slightly warm or slightly north of neutral and encroaches on the analytical side. Find out which type of sound signature works well for the type of music you listen to and above all make sure to your ears it sounds fun. Some people get a little to carried away with the technical side of this hobby and forget that music is supposed to be fun. Mix and match a little and see what works for you and once you have some experience in gear then concentrate on a neutral rig. Don't be afraid to try out a K701 and see what a big sound stage sounds like or maybe try out a Grado and see what forward sounding mid's sound like. Maybe even try mating them to a nice tube amp like a Bottlehead Crack and see for yourself how the sound changes and whether to your ears it works for you. Try a couple of bass heavy cans and see if it's your cup of tea and while doing this have fun along the way. Get yourself involved in this community make a few friends and attend a couple of headphone meets in your city. Headphone meets for me taught me a lot about different headphone sound signatures without me having to spend my whole pay cheque.  Most people who own a neutral rig are usually the people who have a few years experience in the hobby have experimented with the different sounds out there and have collected the source material that will shine on a neutral rig. If you think spending the farm on a neutral rig will make your collection of Eminem or The Black Eyed Peas sound any better trust me when I tell you if anything it will make the music sound terrible.
 
Just my two cents.

Thanks very much, advice very much appreciated. Mostly just researching options at the moment and trying to get feedback from more experienced people. Headphone meets don't exist over here as far as I can make out, honestly I don't ever remember seeing anyone else wearing anything than IEMs or the cheaper Skullcandy stuff around here in the last year that I've been paying attention. I'd do better going down the speaker route but I don't have the money for that other than going for entry level stuff. You're right that I shouldn't jump into a neutral rig, just being enthusiastic and pricing options really; trying to figure out what kind of money I'd be talking to try various options and so on. I love researching stuff and learning about new and different options etc. I've no illusions about a neutral rig making some of my music work well (it'd probably be deeply unpleasant to listen to some of it uncoloured!) but I think it would be interesting for some of my lossless/good lossy Classical, Opera and Choral stuff. More to analyse rather than to listen for pleasure necessarily. That said, no rush. I'll poke some of my hifi friends and see if they've something approaching neutral and see what I can listen to (yeah very different to headphones but probably the best I can do). 
 
From an entry level point of view, is there much in the cheaper end of components that are fairly neutral? Or approaching neutrality. You mentioned the O2 earlier.