[TSAVJason]

I'm sorry, but I can't reconcile your comment of "a DAC can be so accurate that it can remove the emotion of a recording"? The more accurate it is, the more of the recording it captures and I don't understand how that can remove emotion; unless it wasn't in the recording originally. Or conversely how a DAC can add emotion if it wasn't contained in the recording? <raises Spock-ian eye brow>

Fair enough. I’ll try to help you understand my comment with the limitations I have. One thing I believe we can agree on is that there is typically a natural warmth to music when we here it live. DAC’s have advanced tremendously over the last few years. The tech is significantly better than 3-5 years ago. I think we agree on this as well. You also know I’m limited as a sponsor so I’m not able to provide a brand example. There are DAC’s that capture the music seemingly with amazing accuracy but sound sterile (removing the emotion). There are also DAC’s in the converse that are amazing in delivering the emotion but have flaws or may not present as well in other aspects of playback.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Fair enough. I’ll try to help you understand my comment with the limitations I have. One thing I believe we can agree on is that there is typically a natural warmth to music when we here it live. DAC’s have advanced tremendously over the last few years. The tech is significantly better than 3-5 years ago. I think we agree on this as well. You also know I’m limited as a sponsor so I’m not able to provide a brand example. There are DAC’s that capture the music seemingly with amazing accuracy but sound sterile (removing the emotion). There are also DAC’s in the converse that are amazing in delivering the emotion but have flaws or may not present as well in other aspects of playback.

I can see your point, but I think I would venture to say that sterility (if not in the recording itself) is then an added colouration and a lack of the upmost in clarity, no? If a particular recording is indeed sterile, then I would venture to say that the recording artist/engineer is to blame. If a recording is made in a way that it has its own warmth (like many great Patricia Barber albums), then a warmly tuned DAC will only exacerbate things (warmth + warmth = sloppy). I agree, no one wants a DAC that comes off as cold & sterile regardless of what you play through it. It wouldn't last long in my setup either.

 

[TSAVJason]

I can see your point, but I think I would venture to say that sterility (if not in the recording itself) is then an added colouration and a lack of the upmost in clarity, no? If a particular recording is indeed sterile, then I would venture to say that the recording artist/engineer is to blame. If a recording is made in a way that it has its own warmth, then a warmly tuned DAC will only exacerbate things (warmth + warmth = sloppy). I agree, no one wants a DAC that comes off as cold & sterile regardless of what you play through it. It wouldn't last long in my setup either.

It could be coloration. I try to use an analog reference as a counter point knowing that in most cases listening to the same recording both from a digital source and analog source to see what differentiates the 2 if anything is very helpful and revealing. I’m not sure I agree with warmth = sloppy but there are DAC’s that I’d agree are sloppy and very poorly clocked

 

[MacedonianHero]

It could be coloration. I try to use an analog reference as a counter point knowing that in most cases listening to the same recording both from a digital source and analog source to see what differentiates the 2 if anything is very helpful and revealing. I’m not sure I agree with warmth = sloppy but there are DAC’s that I’d agree are sloppy and very poorly clocked

Sorry, to clarify, warmth doesn't equal sloppy, but rather a warmly tuned recording + a warmly tuned DAC could in fact = sloppy (too much warmth), thus my preferences.

 

[TSAVJason]

Ok I’d agree with that

 

[up late]

As mentioned, a coloured source + coloured headphones can equal a dog's breakfast. Plus a coloured/distorted source will always be in play regardless of what headphones you use. Changing up headphones only affects whatever listening session you're in. A source is all encompassing. And I don't think dCS or MSB are looking to offer coloured sources with "pleasing distortion", they too are trying to minimize distortion and maximize clarity to justify their high price. I'm not aware of a Chord "house sound"...so I don't understand this statement? It's certainly not like a Grado sound that gives a similar character and deviation from neutrality across much of its product line. So it is quite simple, at least to me. YMMV.

yes, and a "coloured" headphone is still a "coloured" headphone regardless of the source. the source (your dave for example) is not "all encompassing" but an essential part of your audio signal chain. and the headphone is the final link in that chain. if the headphone compromises the integrity of the audio signal that it is receiving from the dave by adding distortion and/or imparting its own unique colouration to it, then that "means you're [not] hearing exactly the way the recording was intended to sound." 　

i didn't say nor imply that dcs or msb are "looking to offer coloured sources with 'pleasing distortion"." i really don't have a view on dcs, msb or chord gear as i've never tried it. with regard to chord having a "house sound", i have seen chord gear described as sounding lean around the forum threads, but i was just quoting zhanming057 to illustrate the point that this debate over which dac is "the best" won't be settled by how well it measures. i think that's already apparent so i'll leave it there.

 

[MacedonianHero]

yes, and a "coloured" headphone is still a "coloured" headphone regardless of the source. the source (your dave for example) is not "all encompassing" but an essential part of your audio signal chain. and the headphone is the final link in that chain. if the headphone compromises the integrity of the audio signal that it is receiving from the dave by adding distortion and/or imparting its own unique colouration to it, then that "means you're [not] hearing exactly the way the recording was intended to sound." 　

i didn't say nor imply that dcs or msb are "looking to offer coloured sources with 'pleasing distortion"." i really don't have a view on dcs, msb or chord gear as i've never tried it. with regard to chord having a "house sound", i have seen chord gear described as sounding lean around the forum threads, but i was just quoting zhanming057 to illustrate the point that this debate over which dac is "the best" won't be settled by how well it measures. i think that's already apparent so i'll leave it there.

All encompassing as in its in my chain at all times regardless of headphone used. - for clarification And thus always part of the equation and all encompassing as a result.

 

[buzzlulu]

Obviously testing and numbers are quite important in your analysis of DAC's and Headphones. Since you review both perhaps you can tell us a bit about your equipment, lab and how you go about testing things. I know on the Z1R thread this came up in the discussions between Jude and Tyl. I think it would be interesting to hear how a reviewer goes about this.

 

[up late]

All encompassing as in its in my chain at all times regardless of headphone used. - for clarification And thus always part of the equation and all encompassing as a result.

i understood that but thanks anyway

 

[jlbrach]

As mentioned, a coloured source + coloured headphones can equal a dog's breakfast. Plus a coloured/distorted source will always be in play regardless of what headphones you use. Changing up headphones only affects whatever listening session you're in. A source is all encompassing. And I don't think dCS or MSB are looking to offer coloured sources with "pleasing distortion", they too are trying to minimize distortion and maximize clarity to justify their high price. I'm not aware of a Chord "house sound"...so I don't understand this statement? It's certainly not like a Grado sound that gives a similar character and deviation from neutrality across much of its product line. So it is quite simple, at least to me. YMMV.

i would rather have a chord dave with a middle of the road HP than to have a TOTL HP with a lessor DAC/AMP....that is me

 

[buzzlulu]

i would rather have a chord dave with a middle of the road HP than to have a TOTL HP with a lessor DAC/AMP....that is me

In the two channel world that I live in (Brit HiFi Naim/Linn) those words are the gospel and foundation of everything we believe in:

SOURCE FIRST

 

[Zhanming057]

In the two channel world that I live in (Brit HiFi Naim/Linn) those words are the gospel and foundation of everything we believe in:

SOURCE FIRST

Back when I lived in Hong Kong the "golden ratio" was 5:2:1, or 5/8th of the budget on the DAC, 1/4th on the headphone amp and 1/8th on the headphones. This is the old days when TOTL cans topped at around $2,000, though.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Back when I lived in Hong Kong the "golden ratio" was 5:2:1, or 5/8th of the budget on the DAC, 1/4th on the headphone amp and 1/8th on the headphones. This is the old days when TOTL cans topped at around $2,000, though.

Old days? I remember those as being just over $200 - $300. HD650, K701, DT880, etc....I miss those days.

 

[franz12]

Back when I lived in Hong Kong the "golden ratio" was 5:2:1, or 5/8th of the budget on the DAC, 1/4th on the headphone amp and 1/8th on the headphones. This is the old days when TOTL cans topped at around $2,000, though.

Technological innovations are amazing, and good things are coming down very fast.
Also, they are categorized as electronics, which means that its value depreciates very fast, like any smartphone. I am wary of putting tens of thousands on a DAC.

 

[336881]

The DAVE is the new Odac. The measurements are only going to matter to those who care about measurements.

What matters to me as much as measurements is the dac chip used and the chassis. I have 2 Phillips tda-1541-s1 chips and a chassis only cost no object Accuphase can compete with in my das-r1 dac. Throw in a schiit eitr and bam now its usb ready.

@TSAVJason your right the tech. has improved the last 3-5 years... and its just now catching up to where it was 30 years ago.