flinkenick's 17 Flagship IEM Shootout Thread (and general high-end portable audio discussion)
Jul 24, 2018 at 6:31 PM Post #11,356 of 39,414
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Shangri-La Jr

I got to test a few upper end HPs that the distributor brought along. The first was the Shangri-La Jr, which is an electrostatic HP driven by a tube amp that goes for around $8K. The Shangri-La provides good body and density to its vocals, while offering great transparency despite a lightly warm tone. It managed to convey an emotional and captivating vocal presentation, with a generally nice midrange tone. The upper mids were relatively more forward, with the lower mids being a bit laid-back. Even so, the overall tone is more predominantly neutral with a brighter touch. Its bass was tight and controlled with a quick decay, but slightly distant within the presentation, so it didn't provide much warmth. But most importantly, the lower treble is pretty aggressive, while the upper treble is not dominant but noticeably brightens the treble tone.

I was initially working under the assumption I would be hearing a smooth, romantic sound one might expect from a tube amp, but only later learned the HP itself was an electrostat. So the combo wasn't necessarily warmer than the Burson V2 amp (which I consider to be pretty neutral), paired with a regular HP. The midrange leaned towards natural, but the treble is simply a bit discomforting for me. However, I switched from band-based music to electronica, and found it to match better. Same for classical, where it provided a nice timbre. I guess it just didn't fare well with cymbals and high hats, which Utopia also tends to produce a bit brighter and sharper due to its 10 Khz peak.

Mr. Speakers Voce
The distributor also had an electrostat Mr. Speakers connected to the Shangri-La's tube amp, the Voce priced around $3K. Compared to the Shangri-La, the Voce's vocals had a slightly distant stage position, so they seemed to be a bit less impressive in terms of density and presence. However, there was a far greater balance throughout the signature. Specifically, the treble was significantly smoother, and more line in with midrange. As a result, the signature was not only smoother, but more coherent. The extension of the bass was not outstanding, but the control and resolution of the mid-bass was impressive, even if it could be a bit warmer to sound true in tone. But overall, this was a very nice combo, and to me, significantly more pleasing than with the Shnagri-La HP itself. A special mix between the presumably brighter electrostat tech, and warm tube amp (just like how my warm SP Cu pairs nicely with the brighter Utopia to create a special blend).

Final D8000
The D8000 costs around $3.5K I think. It has what is perhaps best described as a smooth neutral tuning, with a slightly laid-back vocal position. It offered good resolution, although it didn't feel as especially high as the Utopia for instance. Most importantly, it was a coherent sound. It had a slightly lifted bass with a natural decay that added some warmth to the sound, although the tone stayed predominantly close to neutral. Treble was in line with the midrange, and details were not exaggerated. Overall, I found the tuning highly reminiscent of the HD800s in terms of type of sound. It was of good quality, but I missed something. I would have preferred if it was either a touch warmer to sound natural, or a bit more lively and aggressive like Utopia. Now it seemed to lack character, and I didn't really find myself enjoying it.

Meze Empyrean
I ended with the Meze Empyrean, which is priced somewhere above $3K. The Empyrean for me was a clear winner, offering a beautiful tonality - an excellent execution of neutral/natural. Just very lightly warm, but still clear, and a beautiful instrument timbre. The mid-bass was relatively neutral in quantity, but had a natural decay that provided a natural flow to the sound. Its vocals had a neutral stage position in terms of forwardness, with average body and density. So not necessarily powerful in terms of presence, but they had a nice tone, and were presented smoothly. Similarly, the note size was pretty neutral. I would say its performance was good, but again not as exceptional as Utopia. But the ever so lightly warm touch in its instruments, and the overall coherency of its sound, gave it a very satisfying signature. Pretty much like an upgraded Auteur, or Mr Speakers Aeon closed for instance. Maybe somewhat similar to LCD-4Z, with a less bodied midrange and powerful bass.

I wonder if they returned it, because I hear people mentioning smooth while I heard it super, forward and agressive.
Yes I think they probably retuned it. This wouldn't classify as particularly aggressive to anyone's standards, compared to something like an LPG for instance. From what I understand they are still working on it.
 
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Jul 24, 2018 at 6:54 PM Post #11,357 of 39,414
has anybody converted dsd to flac? I'm just researching it right now and read some stuff about noise that I didn't understand

https://www.psaudio.com/ps_faq/converting-dsd-to-pcm-bad/
I've never considered it. What brought about the research pith? As in, why would you want to do this? : ) You may have to put on your Goggling pants for this.

It comes down to Quantization Error (Quantization Noise) being induced whenever an analog/digital waveform is (re)quantized, truncated bit depth or downsampled/decimated.

In terms of digital noise, the greater the bit depth, the quieter the digital noise - thus effecting SNR and DR. Each added bit reduces the audible level of quantization error by ~6dB, since each bit adds ~6dB to the dynamic range. Being that DSD is only 1 bit with a dynamic range of only ~6 dB, it stands to reason that it will have higher levels of quantization noise than that of an identical PCM waveform. This is where Dither (adding noise) and Noise Shaping* come into play. *Moving this noise up and out of the audible spectrum, also in turn adding SNR to 20-20kHz (IIRC focusing on 1-4kHz) and decreasing it above audible spectrum.

DSD64 will show aggressive noise above ~25kHz with it exponentially rising, where DSD128 starts at ~50kHz, only slightly higher than a redbook file at 44.1Khz. Now this isn't really a problem as DSD is then outputted through a LPF that filters out this high-frequency noise and you're left with your analog signal, but the more times you requantize the more noise you induce which is why Ted mentioned that performing this process multiple times is the concern. How many is multiple? No clue lol, but I'd think its safe to say 3-4 times shouldn't be an issue as most DSD files already have been requantized 2-3 times throughout the production process if edited in DXD (like most are). Point is that one extra time you requantize when going DSD>PCM should be fine.

With all this said, quantization error occurs at the softest or quietest points in the recorded signal, so the content of this recorded signal is something to consider. If there are no quiet passages in the material, there may be no audible artifacts until the fade-out for example...or this could just be that quantization noise is more suitable for measurement on an oscilloscope than our ears. You know, audio ninja kinda crap : )
They also seem to be talking specifically about conversions from DSD to PCM, modifying the PCM data, then converting back to DSD (the noise is introduced when you convert back to DSD)...So I guess converting DSD to PCM will not create noise.
When working with D/S dacs you will always be converting to DSD (SDM more specifically) as that's how they work. Crazy eh? : )
Isn't 20 kHz a theoretical problem since:
1) most adults don't hear at 20 kHz, and
2) headphones roll of before 20 kHz ?
While this holds true in theory, there are examples where this isn't necessarily the case such as the 500kHz+ noise generated by SMPS. Though indirectly, frequencies above the audible spectrum have influence on SQ.

I'm sure you've heard this one before but it fits well here : ) ***In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.***

Wow! I managed to get through all this without adding a goofy gif!! Could do with a cool refreshing drink though.
200w.gif
 
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Jul 24, 2018 at 6:58 PM Post #11,358 of 39,414
Great stuff man. Nice to have good ears near a retailer. Benefits us readers. I hear Meze is working to improve their manufacturing process to reduce the price of the Empyrean. If they can bring down the retail to $3k that would be nice. And soon we should be able to pick up used unis for as low as $2.1k in the used market. Looks like it just might be a great all-rounder, which is also light in weight.
 
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Jul 24, 2018 at 9:29 PM Post #11,359 of 39,414
What brought about the research pith? As in, why would you want to do this? : )
: )
i think it's my transport (phone) or cable, dsd's click intermittently while I'm listening through my mojo.

I've also been on the hunt for a dsd copy of pink floyd's dark side of the moon, hoping to find a rip from the 30th anniversary sacd or a blackface or black triangle copy
 
Jul 24, 2018 at 10:45 PM Post #11,360 of 39,414
The hansound venom is simply incredible. Very interested in venom vs other totl cables. I'll just screen cap a private convo about it since late...

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I didnt read anything about the venom and it turns out my impressions match dead on with the product description. I failed to mention the utterly black background but it's most definitely there. Cant wait to wakeup and listen in the morning.

Screenshot_20180724-225609_Samsung Internet.jpg

Folks sleeping on Han sound. Mistake.
 
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Jul 25, 2018 at 1:13 AM Post #11,361 of 39,414
The hansound venom is simply incredible. Very interested in venom vs other totl cables. I'll just screen cap a private convo about it since late...



I didnt read anything about the venom and it turns out my impressions match dead on with the product description. I failed to mention the utterly black background but it's most definitely there. Cant wait to wakeup and listen in the morning.



Folks sleeping on Han sound. Mistake.

I don’t think I’ve posted impressions of the Venom anywhere outside of PMs, but it has the most outstanding separation and largest soundstage I’ve ever heard from a cable. Its imaging is pin-point precise without exaggerating the treble, or leaning out the mid-bass/lower-midrange, etc. Stellar stuff, indeed... well, aside from its ergonomics, that is. :wink:
 
Jul 25, 2018 at 2:08 AM Post #11,363 of 39,414
I don’t think I’ve posted impressions of the Venom anywhere outside of PMs, but it has the most outstanding separation and largest soundstage I’ve ever heard from a cable. Its imaging is pin-point precise without exaggerating the treble, or leaning out the mid-bass/lower-midrange, etc. Stellar stuff, indeed... well, aside from its ergonomics, that is. :wink:
Don't tell me it also pairs well with the Phantom. Please don't. I am trying to resist the urge to review, but interesting stuff just keeps popping up, followed by an old familiar voice on my shoulder...
:imp: "Perhaps this cable could push Phantom to reproduce Beethoven at an even grander scale." :imp:
and
:imp: "These IEMs might be something completely different to explore." :imp:

And all the time there I am trying to be sensible...
:innocent: "I have obligations" :innocent:
:imp: "But those are boring." :imp:
:innocent: "Just a few months and I can get back into reviewing full on." :innocent:
:imp: "Just think about what you're missing out on." :imp:
:innocent: "I'm tired." :innocent:
:imp: "Music is a great way to relax." :imp:
:innocent: "I'm stressed." :innocent:
:imp: "Music therapy." :imp:
:innocent: "I wanna go home." :innocent:
:imp: "Listen to some Doe Maar." :imp:
 
Jul 25, 2018 at 2:17 AM Post #11,364 of 39,414
On a totally unrelated topic, I am just going to leave this here:



I stumbled on to this video today and just wanted to share it with my buddies here..


Nowadays this video would be titled... [EXPOSED] The REAL Reason Why Tyll Retired (GONE SAX-UAL). :p

Don't tell me it also pairs well with the Phantom. Please don't. I am trying to resist the urge to review, but interesting stuff just keeps popping up, followed by an old familiar voice on my shoulder...
:imp: "Perhaps this cable could push Phantom to reproduce Beethoven at an even grander scale." :imp:
and
:imp: "These IEMs might be something completely different to explore." :imp:

And all the time there I am trying to be sensible...
:innocent: "I have obligations" :innocent:
:imp: "But those are boring." :imp:
:innocent: "Just a few months and I can get back into reviewing full on." :innocent:
:imp: "Just think about what you're missing out on." :imp:
:innocent: "I'm tired." :innocent:
:imp: "Music is a great way to relax." :imp:
:innocent: "I'm stressed." :innocent:
:imp: "Music therapy." :imp:
:innocent: "I wanna go home." :innocent:
:imp: "Listen to some Doe Maar." :imp:

Nahh, don't worry man... that title goes to the PWAudio 1950s. :wink:
 
Jul 25, 2018 at 4:24 AM Post #11,368 of 39,414
For a two thousand dollar 1.2 meter cable it would want to be pretty awesome though wouldn't it?

For far less money you could purchase a cable like the Lionheart or Thor II 4 wire and pay a company like Music Sanctuary to wrap it in 5+ layers of shielding of various kinds to achieve a similar result. If the Venom's ergonomics are poor as Deezel alluded then it sounds like that's similar to what they've done, created a heavily-shielded cable which is why the separation and black background are so good but the wire itself is thick and unwieldy by IEM cable standards.
 
Jul 25, 2018 at 4:48 AM Post #11,369 of 39,414
For a two thousand dollar 1.2 meter cable it would want to be pretty awesome though wouldn't it?

For far less money you could purchase a cable like the Lionheart or Thor II 4 wire and pay a company like Music Sanctuary to wrap it in 5+ layers of shielding of various kinds to achieve a similar result. If the Venom's ergonomics are poor as Deezel alluded then it sounds like that's similar to what they've done, created a heavily-shielded cable which is why the separation and black background are so good but the wire itself is thick and unwieldy by IEM cable standards.
I fail to see why you need to shield a cable so much. My cables don't add noise to silent IEMs
 
Jul 25, 2018 at 5:11 AM Post #11,370 of 39,414

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