[Mimouille]

ciems are my kids , bro

hell , most of the time they are also my mistress/wife/gf

I hope you rinse them after use.

 

[Mimouille]

Wow another overpriced relic for elderly audiophiles who haven't arrived in the present yet. Sorry guys, but we arrived in the age of streaming several years ago. TOTL DAPs without Spotify and Tidal support are just laughable in my humble opinion. Yes, I also belong to the old herd that still buys albums. But streaming abilities (both in and out) are definitely a must these days. The release of such a huge chunk of 3000$ metal without any mentionable features makes me laugh uncontrollably. Why is the audiophile scene always stuck in the past? Sorry for the rant

Did you read the part on streaming? 80% of their market is going to be China / Asia and they don't care.

 

[Asspirin]

Did you read the part on streaming? 80% of their market is going to be China / Asia and they don't care.

So Asians don't stream music?

Lengthy edit in case of misunderstandings:

I fully understand that most of the brand's customers don't care about such features. I just wanted to express my bafflement about audiophile consumers and manufacturers being years behind

 

[Mython]

Mehh... streaming's been around for decades - it's called 'Radio'


All these people bitching & moaning about every new DAP must have streaming or 'the maker is a muppet' and 'it's not worth buying'...

I understand the perspective; I really do. But it's only one perspective; there are just as many (probably more) who couldn't give a fig about streaming on a DAP.

(Note: what follows is in regard to streaming in the sense of using streaming services, rather than in regard to streaming with a NAS, in a home environment, which I consider to be a significantly different topic)


The streaming business has already demonstrated itself to be an unstable business model - both Qobuz and Tidal have been dogged by the prospect of bankruptcy:

https://theviolinchannel.com/qobuz-...ming-service-rescued-receivership-bankruptcy/
http://thetropixs.com/tidal-going-bankrupt-suffers-28-million-loss/

It seems likely that streaming will continue to exist, in some form or another, from a technical standpoint, but from a business standpoint, it seems to be on shaky ground.

Even without the issue of streaming functionality, DAP-makers are trying to develop hardware that soon becomes 'old news', and thus needs re-developing every 2-3 years or so (which is very costly) - DAPs have become a highly-competitive market. Why add more stress, cost, difficulty, time, and legal red-tape, to the development process?

What happens if a firm spend another 3-6 months of stress, cost, difficulty, time, and legal red-tape, just in order to satisfy Tidal users, only to find that Tidal suddenly goes bankrupt a month after they finally release the DAP to market?

What happens if a landmark court-ruling occurs in a country, that outlaws one or more of the popular streaming services? In a split second, suddenly, any DAP with such functionality may lose it's competitive edge.

For those manufacturers who believe they must satisfy Tidal users in order to compete, then good luck to them, and I'm not disrespecting their efforts, but for those manufacturers who see how precarious the streaming industry is, and prefer to remain on more solid ground, without over-extending their development outlay, I respect that, too, and I don't feel they deserve to be criticised so emphatically, by Tidal fans, as 'Wrong' for not putting their own companies finances at risk with the stress, cost, difficulty, time, and legal red-tape that they'd have to endure, in order to successfully implement the functionality.

Streaming-company bankruptcy potential aside, what happens to a DAP company if they spend tens of thousands of dollars implementing Tidal functionality, and then some big cheese at Tidal decides that they need to change their platform for their own security or legal reasons, etc. Such a change might render their hardware or firmware unable to adapt, and then what good would all their work have been?

What happens if Tidal decide, some time down the line, that some Chinese (just an example) DAP manufacturers don't meet their arbitrary criteria, and withdraw their service from users of those devices?

What I'm getting at is not at all far-fetched. The more money a DAP manufacturer piles into implementing another companys technology, the more they are making the financial stability of their own company vulnerable to the whims (or financial instability) of that 3rd-party company.

I can see one possible exception to this situation - Kickstarter (and similar) funding methods. If streaming-compatible DAPs are proposed by DAP companies, but only if they are funded, right from the outset, then (not all, but) much of the financial risk in the extra development effort could thereby be offset.


I wouldn't mind betting that CIEM manufacturers are extremely grateful that they don't have to put up with such proprietary issues, just to keep their customers happy, in a competitive market. It's hard enough competing as it is!

Sorry for the OT and almost-rant

 

[PinkyPowers]

Wow another overpriced relic for elderly audiophiles who haven't arrived in the present yet. Sorry guys, but we arrived in the age of streaming several years ago. TOTL DAPs without Spotify and Tidal support are just laughable in my humble opinion. Yes, I also belong to the old herd that still buys albums. But streaming abilities (both in and out) are definitely a must these days. The release of such a huge chunk of 3000$ metal without any mentionable features makes me laugh uncontrollably. Why is the audiophile scene always stuck in the past? Sorry for the rant

It's a must FOR YOU. Not so for many of us.

You only need streaming on your phone or PC. Discover new music. Buy new music. Put said music on TOTL DAP.

 

[Ike1985]

i think maybe i should explain my stupidity to avoid sounding stupid, which is impossible because i actually am stupid.

a little back story: before, i used to think that small incremental upgrades was the way to go. I would work my way up the ladder slowly. this proved to be very aggravating to me, upgrades just didn't seem like they did anything, it was too slow and each next iem just wouldn't live up to my expectations of 200-300+ more dollars. my previous iem was the ca jupiter that i blind bought after being too hyped up. i wasn't immediately wowed by the jupiter in terms of performance gains, but i eventually came to appreciate its merits. because of my initial disappointment, i decided to skip a few steps. i was originally gonna get a couple more iems before landing at the a18t, but since i couldn't decide, i just saved and saved and saved. lo and behold, when i heard 64 audio was putting the tia driver in the a12, i leapt at the chance and blew all my savings. since i flat out skipped everything from 800 to 2000 dollars, i have no idea what any of it sounds like aside from a few auditions here and there, but comparing the a12t with my previous, much less expensive equipment, it all just seemed like a joke, the a12t was so much better. and since i didnt try anything from 1000-1500 dollars i came under the illusion that the point of diminishing returns does not exist.

so basically what i'm saying is, the vast chasm of a performance gap between the jupiter and the a12t meant i dismissed everything between it. i'll probably now go audition everything below the a12t to really ascertain how much of a performance gain the a12t is compared to say the andromeda, or something like that. forgive me for my stupidity

I live your self depricating humour. Please always do this.

 

[Mimouille]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/akgs-new-flagship-iem-n5005.869344/page-29#post-14184485

FYI I tried the AKG, not bad at all. Really worth a try.

 

[491326]

is there a full-size headphone version of this thread? after spending 3 years in the iem hole, i have no idea what full-sized headphones are the crap right now. except the utopia cause so many people talk about it. and the eikon.

 

[piotrus-g]

is there a full-size headphone version of this thread? after spending 3 years in the iem hole, i have no idea what full-sized headphones are the **** right now. except the utopia cause so many people talk about it. and the eikon.

I can wholeheartedly recommend MrSpeakers' Voce - it's extremely good. Not much surprise me and these left my jaw open. The price is great too. I was expecting at least 3x higher price based on sound alone. If you are looking for desktop headphones - you can't go wrong with Voce in my honest opinion.

 

[491326]

MrSpeakers' Voce

oh, actually i was thinking about getting closed back, i'll try out the voce if i can get my hands on it

 

[piotrus-g]

oh, actually i was thinking about getting closed back, i'll try out the voce if i can get my hands on it

Oh, then I'm not your guy, as I don't use headphones at all. When you get the chance to try Voce, definitely do!

 

[chaiyuta]

Since Lotoo PAW touch can act as USB DAC, it still can play any streaming services via smartphone or PC. In my opinion, rather than DAP manufacturers have to approach streaming services, those streaming services should approach and provide technical support to DAP manufacturers instead cause customers who bought DAP are their prospective customer. Anyhow, the more feature is the better, isn't it? By the way, I do understand that DAP manufacturers need to cost control efficiently.

 

[ctsooner22]

Wow another overpriced relic for elderly audiophiles who haven't arrived in the present yet. Sorry guys, but we arrived in the age of streaming several years ago. TOTL DAPs without Spotify and Tidal support are just laughable in my humble opinion. Yes, I also belong to the old herd that still buys albums. But streaming abilities (both in and out) are definitely a must these days. The release of such a huge chunk of 3000$ metal without any mentionable features makes me laugh uncontrollably. Why is the audiophile scene always stuck in the past? Sorry for the rant

Another 2 channel old guy here. I totally agree with you. The Sony was a non starter because of this. I went with the AK380cu/cuamp. I thought I did my research, only to find out that their Tidal streaming SUCKS. IT WON"T WORK. No even a little. AK should be called out on this. I think I may go to their thread and find out why this is happening. I can rant too ..... This is just sad adn wrong. If a 2 channel company sold their product and a key item didn't work, they'd be out of business quickly. I agree that these companies who want to make high end DAP's need to start adding streaming and if they don't, I pray folks don't purchase them so they start to figure it out. Doubt that happens. I have a server/DAC at home that streams Tidal. It retails for 53K usd. Yes, you read correctly (I didn't pay nearly that, but that's not the point). They are only about the best sound. It can do Roon if I want, but it hurts the sounds just a spec, so I'm not doing Room, until they make it sound as good or better than JRiver.

The moral is that it can be done with a little work and for that price they are just screwing us out and we let them. Sorry for MY rant, but you opened up the scab.

 

[Asspirin]

Mehh... streaming's been around for decades - it's called 'Radio'


All these people bitching & moaning about every new DAP must have streaming or 'the maker is a muppet' and 'it's not worth buying'...

I understand the perspective; I really do. But it's only one perspective; there are just as many (probably more) who couldn't give a fig about streaming on a DAP.

(Note: what follows is in regard to streaming in the sense of using streaming services, rather than in regard to streaming with a NAS, in a home environment, which I consider to be a significantly different topic)


The streaming business has already demonstrated itself to be an unstable business model - both Qobuz and Tidal have been dogged by the prospect of bankruptcy:

https://theviolinchannel.com/qobuz-...ming-service-rescued-receivership-bankruptcy/
http://thetropixs.com/tidal-going-bankrupt-suffers-28-million-loss/

It seems likely that streaming will continue to exist, in some form or another, from a technical standpoint, but from a business standpoint, it seems to be on shaky ground.

Even without the issue of streaming functionality, DAP-makers are trying to develop hardware that soon becomes 'old news', and thus needs re-developing every 2-3 years or so (which is very costly) - DAPs have become a highly-competitive market. Why add more stress, cost, difficulty, time, and legal red-tape, to the development process?

What happens if a firm spend another 3-6 months of stress, cost, difficulty, time, and legal red-tape, just in order to satisfy Tidal users, only to find that Tidal suddenly goes bankrupt a month after they finally release the DAP to market?

What happens if a landmark court-ruling occurs in a country, that outlaws one or more of the popular streaming services? In a split second, suddenly, any DAP with such functionality may lose it's competitive edge.

For those manufacturers who believe they must satisfy Tidal users in order to compete, then good luck to them, and I'm not disrespecting their efforts, but for those manufacturers who see how precarious the streaming industry is, and prefer to remain on more solid ground, without over-extending their development outlay, I respect that, too, and I don't feel they deserve to be criticised so emphatically, by Tidal fans, as 'Wrong' for not putting their own companies finances at risk with the stress, cost, difficulty, time, and legal red-tape that they'd have to endure, in order to successfully implement the functionality.

Streaming-company bankruptcy potential aside, what happens to a DAP company if they spend tens of thousands of dollars implementing Tidal functionality, and then some big cheese at Tidal decides that they need to change their platform for their own security or legal reasons, etc. Such a change might render their hardware or firmware unable to adapt, and then what good would all their work have been?

What happens if Tidal decide, some time down the line, that some Chinese (just an example) DAP manufacturers don't meet their arbitrary criteria, and withdraw their service from users of those devices?

What I'm getting at is not at all far-fetched. The more money a DAP manufacturer piles into implementing another companys technology, the more they are making the financial stability of their own company vulnerable to the whims (or financial instability) of that 3rd-party company.

I can see one possible exception to this situation - Kickstarter (and similar) funding methods. If streaming-compatible DAPs are proposed by DAP companies, but only if they are funded, right from the outset, then (not all, but) much of the financial risk in the extra development effort could thereby be offset.


I wouldn't mind betting that CIEM manufacturers are extremely grateful that they don't have to put up with such proprietary issues, just to keep their customers happy, in a competitive market. It's hard enough competing as it is!


Sorry for the OT and almost-rant

Dude, thanks for your input! Very appreciated. Regarding your point about App support: This would not be an issue if the manufacturer chose Android (or a modification of it) instead of making their own. I am no expert by any means, so I don't know about the cost or problems of doing that. Maybe someone knows more?

It's a must FOR YOU. Not so for many of us.

You only need streaming on your phone or PC. Discover new music. Buy new music. Put said music on TOTL DAP.

Absolutely right. To be honest, I'm absolutely happy with my android DAP and not really concerned about what other people buy. For me it's rather like witnessing people buying cars with old steam engines for crazy amounts of money. It's a curious topic and worthy of discussion IMO

 

[ctsooner22]

Ok, I have reread this thread. Maybe I need to get off my soapbox a bit. I will say that if you do offer Tidal, then make it work and support it! How's that? I CAN LEARN new things.

oh, actually i was thinking about getting closed back, i'll try out the voce if i can get my hands on it

PM me if you would like. I'm actually selling a GREAT pair of ZMF Ori's in Bocote (fairly rare and an upgrade) with a brand new Audio Art's TOTL balanced cable along with teh stock cable that you can add whatever connector you want. It's almost new and it great condition. It's got vent holes that give it a huge soundstage, but folks don't seem to hear when sitting close to me. May or may not be what you want, but I got it over all of Dan's products (Mr Speakers). That's me. As many know I like tonality and a reference kind of sound. These are on the warm side, but very very extend on both ends. Fairly flat with not real bumps anywhere on teh spectrum. Zach and his wife are two of the best designers/ears in headphones today and are coming out wiht their own line of organic can's that are incredible. Mine have the lambskin ear pads as well as the upgraded lambskin head pad too. I just have too many headphones and now listen solely to my Phantom's, lol....

Just let me know either way.