[Deezel177]

It's unfortunate that UM Mason v3's little brother the Mentor v3 isn't getting more attention. I personally prefer the sound signature of those more despite the lower price. A funner sweeter tuning.

Yeah, I unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to try one yet. I'll definitely talk to UM about an audition once my Mason V3 review's published, which shouldn't be much longer now.

 

[Deezel177]

Their japan only mid-priced Mavis 2 appears to be very well received locally.

That and the Maverick have really caught my attention, but the Japanese exclusivity kills it for me. I'll be able to audition them when I fly over there at the end of the year, though.

 

[deafdoorknob]

That and the Maverick have really caught my attention, but the Japanese exclusivity kills it for me. I'll be able to audition them when I fly over there at the end of the year, though.

this reviewer is quite active in japan, he also appears to be a head-fi member (based on stuff he mentions) and surprisingly, his writing style actually makes sense post-google translation!

http://sandalaudio.blogspot.hk/2017/08/unique-melody-mavis-ii.html?m=1

a glossary to some frequent google mis/non-translation:

terrible = awesome/terrifyingly good
don = onomatopoeic for bass
sha/shari = onomatopoeia for treble
don shari = V shaped
don don = boomy
shasha = bright
chip = tip

anyhow his tastes tend correlate with a few of us methinks

enjoy!

 

[twister6]

It's unfortunate that UM Mason v3's little brother the Mentor v3 isn't getting more attention. I personally prefer the sound signature of those more despite the lower price. A funner sweeter tuning.

I'm at the tail of Mentor V3 tour, so will definitely review/compare it, though might take awhile before it makes its way to me.

 

[491326]

so on a whim, i decided to compare my less expensive iem to my current most expensive (not really on a whim, i have a pimple in my ear and ciems make it really uncomfortable). i realize that mental burn-in is gonna mess up this entire test but i noticed something strange as the price of the iems went up. aside from stuff like detail retrieval, soundstage, imaging, the biggest improvement is actually in tone? timbre? I don't know exactly how to describe it.

i guess the best way to put it is with acoustic instruments, how their tone can change depending on how they are played, a violin played softly is different from a violin played aggressively. with my lower tier iems, i cant make out the difference in tone as easily as i can with the more expensive ones.

what is this called? is it called tone? timbre?

 

[Deezel177]

so on a whim, i decided to compare my less expensive iem to my current most expensive (not really on a whim, i have a pimple in my ear and ciems make it really uncomfortable). i realize that mental burn-in is gonna mess up this entire test but i noticed something strange as the price of the iems went up. aside from stuff like detail retrieval, soundstage, imaging, the biggest improvement is actually in tone? timbre? I don't know exactly how to describe it.

i guess the best way to put it is with acoustic instruments, how their tone can change depending on how they are played, a violin played softly is different from a violin played aggressively. with my lower tier iems, i cant make out the difference in tone as easily as i can with the more expensive ones.

what is this called? is it called tone? timbre?

I think that's more related to dynamics and headroom. Tone and timbre would apply to the whole range regardless of how loud or soft an instrument is played. An increase in headroom would mean a greater contrast between the softer parts of the track and the louder ones. And, because of this, you'd be able to hear more information at once when the music gets louder and busier, which is where you'll perceive these differences.

 

[Mython]

Diaphragm control (by the amplifier, yes, but also by the 'motor' of the transducers themselves) would also affect the ability to convey multiple aspects of sound simultaneously (e.g. harmonics, timbre, etc.). On the costings side of that, in addition to proper engineering design, the strength of the magnets can be important, and some scenarios require more expensive rare-earth (neodymium, etc.) types of magnet.

In other words, if you have a cheap motor design for the transducers (e.g. BA or DD), then it may not exert enough control over the diaphragm to convey nuances at the same time as more prominent sounds in the music. In the case of DDs, the material chosen for the diaphragm itself (and for the diaphragm-surround) can have a massive influence on how well damped the diaphragm is, because if it is poorly designed, then all manner of unwanted resonances can potentially over-excite the diaphragm, and can thereby smear important nuances in the recording.
If a designer chooses to use exotic diaphragm materials (beryllium, titanium, etc.), then, sometimes it can increase costs quite dramatically, not necessarily for the material itself, but for the manufacturing process(es) required in order to successfully manipulate the chosen material (titanium is notorious for this, in the bike industry, for example).

Then there's how well designed the IEM enclosure/housing is designed, in relation to the drivers it contains. Loudspeaker designers take great care to choose the volume and shape of their enclosures, as these parameters can have numerous important effects upon the behaviour of the transducers/drive-units, including how well-damped they are. I can relate, from personal experience, that the FutureSonics MG6Pro is guilty of overlooking the importance of this, and suffers badly because of it (well, my pair certainly do).


Basically, there's a whole heap of reasons why cheaper IEMs may not convey timbre as well as more expensive ones, even though it is not always about cost - the skill of the designer in choosing materials and implementing them is every bit as important - actually, more so.

On the fullsize 2ch side of the market, although I feel their press publicity is over-hyped, I nonetheless acknowledge that Elac are achieving some very nice sound, at competitive pricepoints, with their mid-fi loudspeaker designs. That is substantially due to skilled design, for their drive units and for their overall implementations. Many of their competitors are just buying-in generic drive units, which isn't always the best way to compete.


Whilst I'm on that topic, it's nice to see that EE are getting involved with specifying bespoke drivers (both BAs and DDs) for their IEMs (even if they're not necessarily manufacturing them all)

 

[491326]

I think that's more related to dynamics and headroom. Tone and timbre would apply to the whole range regardless of how loud or soft an instrument is played. An increase in headroom would mean a greater contrast between the softer parts of the track and the louder ones. And, because of this, you'd be able to hear more information at once when the music gets louder and busier, which is where you'll perceive these differences.

maybe thats what i'm hearing. its really amazing actually, I was using a dsd of miles davis' kind of blue and the difference between iems became extremely apparent. with my cheapest iems each trumpet note would sound the same (obviously not pitch, i mean like note size, shape, attack, decay). even my mid-tier iems struggled at times. the flagships just stomped on everything so hard, i'm starting to feel like the "point of diminishing returns" just doesnt actually exist.

 

[Deezel177]

maybe thats what i'm hearing. its really amazing actually, I was using a dsd of miles davis' kind of blue and the difference between iems became extremely apparent. with my cheapest iems each trumpet note would sound the same (obviously not pitch, i mean like note size, shape, attack, decay). even my mid-tier iems struggled at times. the flagships just stomped on everything so hard, i'm starting to feel like the "point of diminishing returns" just doesnt actually exist.

Oh, the point of diminishing returns definitely exists. Leaps in quality inevitably decrease as price increases, and there's no going around that. If you spend another $2000 to get a Tia Fourte for example, I doubt the difference between it and the A12t could come anywhere close to the difference between the A12t and your cheapest IEM.

 

[proedros]

diminishing returns effect is the wise buyer's friend and the crazy spender's enemy

I feel like Zeus XR is my plateau , i can not justify spending say 2K for a tuning sidegrade or just a different flavor

but that's me , with my tight budget - if i made 5K/month i would probably not be so wise

 

[Deezel177]

diminishing returns effect is the wise buyer's friend and the crazy spender's enemy

I feel like Zeus XR is my plateau , i can not justify spending say 2K for a tuning sidegrade or just a different flavor

but that's me , with my tight budget - if i made 5K/month i would probably not be so wise

If you made $5K/month, you wouldn't need to be.

 

[swesko]

Oh, the point of diminishing returns definitely exists. Leaps in quality inevitably decrease as price increases, and there's no going around that. If you spend another $2000 to get a Tia Fourte for example, I doubt the difference between it and the A12t could come anywhere close to the difference between the A12t and your cheapest IEM.

That's the main problem, I was so wowed jumping from 300usd oems to 1500iems now I'm paying for the u18t and feel fear I will be disappointed

 

[aaf evo]

I’ll be receiving my U18t on Friday. I can’t wait

 

[swesko]

Looks like John finally let those guys congrats and post your impressions as you had the fourte

 

[ctsooner22]

diminishing returns effect is the wise buyer's friend and the crazy spender's enemy

I feel like Zeus XR is my plateau , i can not justify spending say 2K for a tuning sidegrade or just a different flavor

but that's me , with my tight budget - if i made 5K/month i would probably not be so wise

j

I love how you put this. For years we in the 2 channel world have fought this same topic. It's just starting to become an issue in personal audio I feel. As prices go up, folks THINK they are getting something that is twice as good or way better etc.... That's typically not the case adn almost can't be. I cal it finding the sweet spot in someone's line. I know the speakers I own (Vandersteen) start at 1600 a pair and go up to 62,000 a pair and now you can add the 15k (or more subs). I have the 15k a pair as I find them to be THAT much better than the next one down (8k) and nearly as good as the 30k. Are there big differences? yes, if you really listen you hear tons of things, but they are incremental things.

Then you have source material and amps. Again, folks need to find what matches best now what's rated best or costs more etc... System synergy. In personal audio, I don't see that at all. I think it's because you guys/(me now) purchase IEM's or CIEM"s like candy, lmao. That's not a bad thing, because you are able to do it. In 2 channel you just can't for obvious reasons.

It's also all subjective. I have found that some IEM's just aren't great and no matter what you do, they won't be more dynamic or have better timbre or tone or pace and rhythm etc.... I also am not one to use cables as a tone control. I"m more in the camp of buy the best transducer, then the best source and then teh best amp and get the best cable you can afford. In this world the focus seems to be on transducer and then cable adn then DAP. I may be wrong here, but that's how it seems. I do see folks using a cable as a tone control. I may become that guy too as I really like the EA Janus D and I'm sure I'd love some others if I ever got to listen to them.

It's a great observation by the OP who brought up the differences he has heard in his two totally different cost IEM's. Love how Proedros put things. Thanks for sharing.